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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:00 am 
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Watch how Floyd Mayweather looked like he has seen a ghost when Margarito challenged him for the Welterweight title. After the incident Floydie again feigned retirement to duck not only Margo but Mosley and Cotto as well. A win by Pacquiao over Margarito fight makes him a better Welterweight Champion than Floyd, having won over the last of the Welterweight top contenders that Mayweather ducked, except Mosley.

If Floyd ducks Manny again after Margarito, a last battle with the Pacman would be
Shane Mosley at Welterweight. No catchweight, only day of the fight weigh-in. (147lbs for both.) or whatever they agree upon. A win over Mosley forever seals Floyd Mayweather’s legacy as runner-up to The Pacman. Manny Pacquiao will then be remembered as P4P King in two divisions, The Featherweights and Welterweights in his reign.

Manny Pacquiao vs Margarito after Mayweather Ducks Again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP3DJAI6Cac

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:31 pm 
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Following are excerpts of comments from thread titled
"Reason why Arum doesn't like Bradley, Berto, Williams"
for further discussions:
viewtopic.php?f=104&t=177395&hilit=
The discussions start after TS completes any remaining unanswered questions.

Die hard started:
Reason why ARUM doesn't like Bradley, Berto, Williams

To my fellow Paclanders,

Against the Grain: On the Pacquiao-Margarito Fight
LINK: http://thecruelestsport.com/2010/08/29/ ... ito-fight/ by Carlos Acevedo dated 29August 2010

Mars318 wrote:
Bradley, Berto, Williams have not fought big names while Margarito had fought guys like
Miguel Cotto
Paul Williams
Sergio Martinez
Joshua Clottey
Sugar Shane Mosley
Kermit Cintron
and 44 fights
and was ducked by Floyd Mayweather Jr

reigncourts
Boxing is business and sometimes dirty if not most of the time. Business dictates that in this fight Margarito should be treated as temporary ally to gain better PPVs for the Pacman. The fight is not only for the money and the 8th title but also to even up with Floyd's PPVs. Are we going to deny this to the Pacman?


Mars318 wrote:
Bradley, Berto, Williams have not fought big names while Margarito had fought guys like
Miguel Cotto
Paul Williams
Sergio Martinez
Joshua Clottey
Sugar Shane Mosley
Kermit Cintron

and 44 fights
and was ducked by Floyd Mayweather Jr.


I fully agree. Ask helven.

helven:
I'm right here. What's the question babe?

Reign, one of the main reasons why Floyd dismissed a clash with Margarito was his animosity with Bob Arum that time whom he accused of shortchanging him during their partnership. Floyd didn't want the Top Rank honcho to make more money at his expense and yeah, he disliked Margarito for insulting him in various occasions and he wouldn't reward him a huge payday. The $8million offer was seen as a mere smokescreen and he knew Bob Arum would earn more dough had he took the bait.

If you're so understanding of Arum's business decision to push thru with his top rank wards, think for a minute about Floyd's motives in turning down Margarito. If you're thinking Floyd did that solely out of fear, you're dead wrong. Use some business sense here the way you're embracing Arum's words as truths.

Reigncourts:
If we put it that way then, I was correct in my assessment since the first negotiations that a fight involving Bob Arum, Dela Hoya and Mayweather is doomed to fail. And since you are still using this argument, Floyd never ducked Margo and the Pacman-he just don't like Bobfather. Now, that's a lame excuse for the self proclaimed best to pick opponents. And here we are criticising Pac for taking the Margo fight and do what he is supposed to do. The critics ignore the fact Texas gave Margarito the license, not Pacquiao.


reigncourts wrote:
Boxing is business and sometimes dirty if not most of the time. Business dictates that in this fight Margarito should be treated as temporary ally to gain better PPVs for the Pacman. The fight is not only for the money and the 8th title but also to even up with Floyd's PPVs. Are we going to deny this to the Pacman?

helven
Since boxing is business and boxing dictates that Margarito deserves it more than anyone else - do you think he still deserves the shot if he wasn't a Top Rank guy based on his track record and marketability?

Justify.

reigncourts
Hard evidence to predict a PPV target? Give your numbers like Dr Love (?), and lets play the numbers game.

helven
If you're so understanding of Arum's business decision to push thru with his top rank wards, think for a minute about Floyd's motives in turning down Margarito. If you're thinking Floyd did that solely out of fear, you're dead wrong. Use some business sense here the way you're embracing Arum's words as truths.

reign
If we put it that way then, I was correct in my assessment since the first negotiations that a fight involving Bob Arum, Dela Hoya and Mayweather is doomed to fail. And since you are still using this argument, Floyd never ducked Margo and the Pacman-he just don't like Bobfather. Now, that's a lame excuse for the self proclaimed best to pick opponents. And here we are criticising Pac for taking the Margo fight and do what he is supposed to do. The critics ignore the fact Texas gave Margarito the license, not Pacquiao.


helven:
Do you really believe that Margarito was in as much threat then to Floyd as Manny is now to him? Hey, believe me - even at his peak - Margarito is not that good to make a dent in the elite ranks. Honestly, do you really think Floyd sees him as a threat to his "0" as Manny does?
My God Reign, two circumstances are never more different from each other. Quit squeezing Margo's balls too hard, you're now bordering on the ridiculous. Bob Arum is not a major roadblock anymore in the proposed Pac-Floyd megafight. It was Manny himself whom Floyd didn't want to mess with.

So, you mean to say that the Texas decision is all to blame now and Manny frees himself from any brunt of criticism?

reigncourts wrote:
Hard evidence to predict a PPV target? Give your numbers like Dr Love (?), and lets play the numbers game.

helven:
Evidence based on official PPV receipts/results to measure his PPV clout to support your argument that he really is a PPV attraction. Not merely based on a Margohugger's fanatical projection.

reigncourts:
Boxing is business and sometimes dirty if not most of the time. Business dictates that in this fight Margarito should be treated as temporary ally to gain better PPVs for the Pacman. The fight is not only for the money and the 8th title but also to even up with Floyd's PPVs. Are we going to deny this to the Pacman?

helven
Since boxing is business and boxing dictates that Margarito deserves it more than anyone else - do you think he still deserves the shot if he wasn't a Top Rank guy based on his track record and marketability?

Justify.


Please answer that question, you have a recurring habit of disappearing when confronted with questions you don't like.

Reigncourts:
Margarito held the title when he challenged Floyd and when he fought Cotto and Mosley. That's marketability and since you questioned Margo's marketability I asked you to make your prediction and see if it's not as ridiculous as Dr. Love's prediction.

First it was the catchweight. Then Marga's license. Are you sure you want to push this through the PPVs numbers. I didn't expect your hatred of Marga to go that far. For the sake of the Pacman, give it up now.

helven
All i'm asking is for you to give me proof of Margarito's few PPV results based on record. I'm not asking for your prediction as it's moot and academic. We're talking real numbers here, so give it to me and let's assess if he really is that drawing power you're trying to sell.

There's a credo in boxing that says "You're only as good as your last fight".
It is where the MARKETABILITY of a prizedfighter is rightly measured.
If you're on a roll, you're hot.
If you're on the skid, you are supposed to work your way up again.
That's plain and simple. No shortcuts.

I don't hate Margarito, i rooted for him against Cotto.
I hate what you're trying to make us believe that he deserves it more than anyone else.
On what merits? You hardly gave me a convincing answer ever since.
You can't continuously sweep the dirt under the rug. Margo is a shot fighter whose only claim to that opportunity is supported by Arum's greed to keep all the money in the house. That's all there's to it.

I bet you can't even explain to me why HE IS THE NO. 1 Light Mid WBC Contender now.

reigncourts replies:
You question Margarito' marketability? You forgot his mexican fans who believed he is not guilty of wrongdoing and it was all the trainers fault? He served time and now he's got the license to fight at Cowboy's Stadium where many of hi fans are nearby.

Now I've been answering your question and it's time you don't avoid mine.
How much PPVs do you think this fight will make?
How many Filipinos, Mexicans and Americans do you think will fill the Cowboy's Stadium.

And dont give me that B/S where you bought your watch, blah, blah -when I ask you only for the time.
.

helven wrote:
Mexican fans? Did they turn up in his last fight? Come on, give me the OVERWHELMING FIGURE!

Tell me something...do you really think the Texas license totally vindicate Margarito of his transgression? If you have been reading around, majority of sane writers and fans are still viewing that decision as absurd. And IT IS NOT EVEN COMPETITIVE if we go by their early forecast. What happens in Texas is boxing corruption at its best to pave way to a joint undertaking by Sulaiman, Bob Arum and Jerry Jones. If you don't smell something fishy in there, you probably have been spending too much time in the dark.

As to be expected from you as usual, you never address the whole point of my question because you are only passionately driven by your emotional fanaticism.

Answer me directly - IF MARGARITO WAS NOT A TOP RANK GUY, DO YOU THINK HE STILL DESERVES IT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE?

Stop beating around the bush, give it to me straight.


reigncourts wrote:
Now I've been answering your question and it's time you don't avoid mine.How much PPVs do you think this fight will make?
How many Filipinos, Mexicans and Americans do you think will fill the Cowboy's Stadium.

And dont give me that B/S where you bought your watch, blah, blah -when I ask you only for the time.

helven
You want a straight answer?
Here's mine... it won't break the previous PPV record of Pac-Clottey.
That's the 2nd time i'm saying that in this forum. The first one was in a related thread concerning that matter.

Attendance, more or less about the same in the aforementioned fight.
Remember, you're the one who's making wild claims that it's supposed to even up with Floyd.

Alright. Deal with my prior questions and stop making a fool of yourself anymore with your flimsy notions.

reigncourts wrote:
Now you're acting stupid, feign ignorance, as usual. The things you're asking me are the subject of this thread and I agreed to it. Why ask me the question separately? Just read the article and if you don't agree, then say so. And dont forget to add your PPV numbers.

helven
Are you having trouble with your comprehension again when the going gets tough for you?

Since you're all out for Margarito and you're saying he is marketable - GIVE ME his official PPV history based on RECORDED ACCOUNTS! Based on his last fight and the previous fights. Because if you can't back up your claims with real proofs - you're just muttering nonsense without the aid of your brain.

Give it to me then and let's see how MARKETABLE he is.
When you back up somebody, convince us all with real PROOFS, NOT JUST mere pep talks you can get away with unknowing Pacquiao fans who only want to see him fight regardless of the circumstances.

studstar wrote:
two things for me:

1. margarito of all people does not deserve the payday, so my reason is personal, i dont him him fruther glorified and kids thinking if i have the right connections in business im going to be ok, regardless of the relative ethics involved. its not like there are no other choices, i think margarito should stew a bit more before getting the lotto.

2. i imagine berto, bradley, williams, martinez, while not blockbusters will still do better than clottey. given similar circumstances. all the major sports outlets would eat up this fight more than the margarito fight, yes, nytimes, bostonherald, cnnsi, espn, yahoo, they would all support this fight and conceivably create enough buzz to make it a blockbuster.


That's a very sensible answer my friend. That single post MAKES MORE SENSE than all REIGNCOURTS' posts put together.

reigncourts
Fifty years from now people, even the diehard boxing fans won't even remember Margarito's name, unless he beats Manny. All they will be talking about is only a Great Filipino Boxer was able to achieve 8 titles in as many weight divisions. They would not talk of a die hard, reigncourts, helven or studstar as having helped Manny to reach the top. Does that make sense to us people?

studstar wrote:
^totoo yan brad. we dont matter in the grand scheme of things. i have a 12yr old son though, who is into sports and syempre boxing, he's asked me about the merits of a margarito fight, and i told him basically the same thing i posted. i am not against margo fighting pac, but not this soon, in what really looks like a lottery win. i also believe margarito knew about the plaster, from evreything ive read about the topic he shld know he had something on.

it might not matter to historians and anyone outside my family, but i think it does matter to my son, who still believes in fairness, equality and justice, and i hope it resonates in his lifetime and when he has kids himself.

helven
On a personal note, that is a very true. It would have been easier to keep silent about this but seeing someone echoing the absurdity of Bob Arum in this forum is just too much to bear.

helven
Do you think after 50 years, those people will not be REMINDED by history books and boxing historians HOW MANY ACHIEVED his 8th title?

Whatever stand we're taking right now reflects the kind of fans we are not only in relation to Manny but in how we view boxing in general. Fanaticism should take a backseat to reality if you really love the sport more than the boxer.


Reigncourts answer:
Here goes the numbers game. With Margarito’s fans coming back to support him after the hype, (perhaps 24/7 but I doubted this) I’d say 70,000 at Cowboy’s Stadium and 800,000 PPVs. And if the scribes critical of the fight subside, and studstar and helvin don’t ask for a boycott of the fight – it can reach the million mark. I base this prediction on the Pac-Clottey and Mayweather-Marquez performance in PPVs. Since this is only a prediction, I need not explain anymore details than I have stated.

helven
Your PPV forecast seems to belie your earlier enthusiasm when you said this fight would level up with Floyd's. Starting to feel the heat now and coming to terms a little bit with reality?

How about answering this question now?

IF MARGARITO IS NOT A TOP RANK GUY, DO YOU THINK HE STILL DESERVES IT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE?

:reigncourts wrote:
Boxing is business and sometimes dirty if not most of the time. Business dictates that in this fight Margarito should be treated as temporary ally to gain better PPVs for the Pacman. The fight is not only for the money and the 8th title but also to even up with Floyd's PPVs. Are we going to deny this to the Pacman?

helven wrote:

Since boxing is business and boxing dictates that Margarito deserves it more than anyone else - do you think he still deserves the shot if he wasn't a Top Rank guy based on his track record and marketability?

Justify.


powerpac wrote
What business man do you know that would rather make money for the other guy instead for himself?



Like Clint Easwood famous line in the "Unforgiven," "Deserve has nothing to do with it."

LMAO! I love that movie.

helven
Nobody of course.
Every businessman looks out for himself in the get go. However, Arum is not your everyday businessman. He is a boxing Promoter extra ordinaire. When he plies his trade, famous athletes and multi-millions are involved. BUT...he's got a big responsibility to the viewing public. To give their money's worth and to offer the best entertainment as advertised. There is supposed to be a reciprocal chain reaction in his line of work. Even in times when he was staging one major event after another, it seems we are compelled to agonize thru a series of terrible undercards first. Inspite of that, his stranglehold in the sport remains influential. That's the kind of businessman he is. He always wins.

Now, for posterity sake... he must give us something special in accordance to what a historic, once-in-a-lifetime 8th division championship is supposed to feel. Even if it means opening up the door of his house to take chances against undefeated guys like Bradley and Berto. Unfortunately, before he even evaluates its bright possibilities, he readily kills the notion of matching Manny up with a nobody. Well, Joshua Clottey must have been so popular then to get his confidence. That's the major knock on Arum, you never know when he is telling the truth.

Anyway, the sport of boxing is far from a Western movie. Vengeance is usually forsaken in the negotiation table. Boxing high-rollers often set aside their animosity towards one another to work for a common good. Good entertainment for wider audience. Deserve has a lot to do with it because boxing thrives on the satisfaction of casual and avid fans. They always DESERVE the best for their money's value. Same principle applies in choosing the key players in the game. Thrill, unpredictability and tough competition are foremost in consideration for a fine matchmaking. What do we have in store? Early predictions are already foregone conclusions. Even the early odds are disappointingly huge in Manny's favor. Fans don't have trouble predicting the winner, rather, in guessing what round Margarito will fall. This is so much similar to Clint Eastwood's movies, he squints and throws his softly-spoken one-liners before blasting his enemies all over the place. Predictably, he gets his revenge. He always wins in a dramatic fashion. Arum lies and tells us what we want to hear. In the end, he, not only, wins but gets the last laugh as well. Yeah, he gets his revenge at our expense.


reigncourts wrote:
Ok then, if your reason is on pure moral issues , that is on rewarding Margo with lottery-the Bobfather has clearly stated that he spends a lot of money promoting his fighters and he was not about to give the fighters being mentioned a free ride on promotional expenses. Love him or hate him, but any promoter has to protect his interest. I may not fully agree with Bob but certainly I believe Marga’s guilt is not proven beyond doubt and has already served his punishment. We can accuse the Texas Com of taking bribe money (which I don’t believe either- I think it was Jones business clout) but certainly it proved my point as well as Manny’s explanation in a subsequent press release. My side is only being realistic, that boxing is indeed a dirty sport than most and that the “ends justify the means” as long as you don’t violate a law (my version). And that's how I justify the moral issues to my family and friends.

helven
By going thru the motions and by being realistic like you say - you are tolerating an immoral cause all along by adding your support to the proliferation of such farcical events in the future. You can't continually wash your hands with muddy water, then, expect others to tell you that you're smelling like a rose thereafter.

helven wrote:
Do you think after 50 years, those people will not be REMINDED by history books and boxing historians HOW MANY ACHIEVED his 8th title?

Whatever stand we're taking right now reflects the kind of fans we are not only in relation to Manny but in how we view boxing in general. Fanaticism should take a backseat to reality if you really love the sport more than the boxer.

helven wrote:
Your PPV forecast seems to belie your earlier enthusiasm when you said this fight would level up with Floyd's. Starting to feel the heat now and coming to terms a little bit with reality?

How about answering this question now?

IF MARGARITO IS NOT A TOP RANK GUY, DO YOU THINK HE STILL DESERVES IT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE?

Reigncourts reply:

Out of respect for the greatest boxers of all time, historians are a bit more lenient when it comes to minor criticisms that tend to diminish the legend. Forty four years ago Ali was convicted of evading the draft which later led to his license being revoked for 3 ½ years. It was during this time Ali made one of his famous quotes “I got nothing against no Viet Cong. No Vietnamese ever called me a nigger.” But you won’t find these in a standard list of his quotes, because others would rather forget about this episode in his life and concentrate on his ring exploits. My point is if they ever looked at Manny’s records he would see Margarito’s name as the last victim and that’s it. The Pac-Margo fight is legitimate. Both are licensed and they will understand that a catchweight is as legitimate as a day of the fight weigh-in no matter how many times a fighter asks for it.

IF MARGARITO IS NOT A TOP RANK GUY MAYBE HE’S BANNED FROM BOXING FOREVER. AND BY THE SAME TOKEN IF MANNY IS NOT A TOP RANK GUY, IT’S DOUBTFUL IF HE HAS GONE PAST HIS FIFTH TITLE. IT IS WITH BOB ARUMS PROMOTIONAL SKILLS THAT LED TO THE PAC-HATTON AND PAC-COTTO FIGHTS. FILIPINO CULTURE DICTATES THAT “YOU DON’T BITE THE HANDS THAT FEEDS YOU” AND MANNY SHOULD NOT BE FAULTED FOR ADHERING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO THIS NORM AS LONG AS HE IS NOT COMMITTING ANY INFRACTION TO THE RULES.


reigncourts wrote:
Out of respect for the greatest boxers of all time, historians are a bit more lenient when it comes to minor criticisms that tend to diminish the legend. Forty four years ago Ali was convicted of evading the draft which later led to his license being revoked for 3 ½ years. It was during this time Ali made one of his famous quotes “I got nothing against no Viet Cong. No Vietnamese ever called me a nigger.” But you won’t find these in a standard list of his quotes, because others would rather forget about this episode in his life and concentrate on his ring exploits. My point is if they ever looked at Manny’s records he would see Margarito’s name as the last victim and that’s it. The Pac-Margo fight is legitimate. Both are licensed and they will understand that a catchweight is as legitimate as a day of the fight weigh-in no matter how many times a fighter asks for it.

helven wrote:
Ali's legend reached astronomical heights after the Rumble in the Jungle, not immediately after his refusal to get drafted in the Vietnam war. Yeah, he was enormously popular back then but he was hardly considered among the 10 greatest Heavyweights of all time at that point. Remember, you're talking of Ali, pre- Golden era of Heavyweights. His greatness was solidified AFTER HIS REINSTATEMENT from exile by beating the likes of Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Bob Foster, Floyd Patterson, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Leon Spinks and Jimmy Young and yes - George Foreman.

To set Ali as an example for what is to be expected to come out of Pacquiao's legacy is a flawed analogy my dear friend. Ali fought them all fair even when he had nothing more to offer. Remember the pitiful beating he took from Larry Holmes? He never demanded any concession to his advantage. He was convicted due to political reasons and when the whole of America came to realize their grand folly in the Vietnam war, so did their perspective on the belated significance of Ali's firm stand not only for himself but for all the black people in his country. So to speak, Ali's reputation was redeemed with the kind passage of time. History judged him fairly.

Now tell me, what possible redemption could there be - personal or political - in two historic catchweight wins 50 years from now? Stop living the hype that Manny once fought at Flyweight. He is a legitimate welterweight now as anybody out there. Leniency is relative to the circumstances. Manny, himself, is actually giving those historians something to diminish about his legacy. For whatever it's worth in the final reckoning, he did it so with consent even if Arum, WBC and Texas Boxing Commission are partly to blame.

reigncourts wrote:
IF MARGARITO IS NOT A TOP RANK GUY MAYBE HE’S BANNED FROM BOXING FOREVER. AND BY THE SAME TOKEN IF MANNY IS NOT A TOP RANK GUY, IT’S DOUBTFUL IF HE HAS GONE PAST HIS FIFTH TITLE. IT IS WITH BOB ARUMS PROMOTIONAL SKILLS THAT LED TO THE PAC-HATTON AND PAC-COTTO FIGHTS. FILIPINO CULTURE DICTATES THAT “YOU DON’T BITE THE HANDS THAT FEEDS YOU” AND MANNY SHOULD NOT BE FAULTED FOR ADHERING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO THIS NORM AS LONG AS HE IS NOT COMMITTING ANY INFRACTION TO THE RULES.

helven wrote:
See how obviously you're trying to divert your shallow answer?
ALL I'M ASKING, IN CASE YOU STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION....

PROVE TO ME THAT MARGARITO IS A WORTHIER OPPONENT THAN ANYBODY ELSE assuming he is not a Top Rank fighter! That question begs for your thorough evaluation of his marketability and latest track record in comparison to BERTO, BRADLEY AND WILLIAMS.

And must you draw a hypothetical parallelism with Manny's career granting he is not a Top Rank fighter too? I didn't ask for that and yet, you're more anxious to elaborate on that matter to make up for your uncertainties with Margarito. With other posters, you might get away with that but now with me. I'll pin you down real hard as soon as i see a little hole in your premise.

Please address my hanging question above with a straightforward answer. I will not let you off the hook until you capitulate.

helven wrote:
By going thru the motions and by being realistic like you say - you are tolerating an immoral cause all along by adding your support to the proliferation of such farcical events in the future. You can't continually wash your hands with muddy water, then, expect others to tell you that you're smelling like a rose thereafter.

Reigncourts reply:
The Great Moral Crusader will make sure Manny Pacquiao will not rest assured that his catchweight titles are not criticized and debated endlessly as fake titles. Now you’re hating Pacquiao on account of my defending such titles as legitimate. Again, You don’t fully understand what a catchweight is. Lets move on and stop this nonsense or meet me at my new thread, or I’ll call you out from that side – if this is allowed by forum rules.

matchbox wrote:
Theres not much fight left for manny ...soon he will retire. thats why its bad news for Bradley, Berto, and Williams. They are not the one that can bring the most money for Pacman. Its hard when you are inside the ring. You try to beat up the other guy but in so doing you also got beat up. Can't blame Manny to look for a much more financially viable fight everytime he goes inside the ring. His choice might not be the most popular one for the fans but financially wise it is the most rewarding.

Die hard
+Yes, lets just enjoy the remaining fight of MP before he retire from boxing for good.
imho, I think MP has 2fights left (May 2011 & Oct/Nov 2011).

Reigncourts
I agree with this observation from the start, bro. And sorry for bringing this old issues on catchweight and others. I said I'm not answering anymore questions not relevant to this article. They go to that thread we agreed upon.

helven wrote:
See how obviously you're trying to divert your shallow answer?
ALL I'M ASKING, IN CASE YOU STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION....

PROVE TO ME THAT MARGARITO IS A WORTHIER OPPONENT THAN ANYBODY ELSE assuming he is not a Top Rank fighter! That question begs for your thorough evaluation of his marketability and latest track record in comparison to BERTO, BRADLEY AND WILLIAMS.

And must you draw a hypothetical parallelism with Manny's career granting he is not a Top Rank fighter too? I didn't ask for that and yet, you're more anxious to elaborate on that matter to make up for your uncertainties with Margarito. With other posters, you might get away with that but now with me. I'll pin you down real hard as soon as i see a little hole in your premise.

Please address my hanging question above with a straightforward answer. I will not let you off the hook until you capitulate.

reigncourts replies:
So now you have turned into a stalker. I was proving my point on how future generations won’t be raising any fuzz on the legitimacy of Pacquiao’s cathweight titles and you proceed to display you’re “FANTASTIC KNOWLEDGES” of boxing history. But do you really believe I or anyone else would read your irrelevant dissertation of jumbled history? I’m not wasting my time with this useless exercise. Meet me at my new thread if you wish but I’d rather not fill this thread space with useless trash. And btw, you still don’t know what a catchweight is, like Emmanuel53.

Helven wrote:
By going thru the motions and by being realistic like you say - you are tolerating an immoral cause all along by adding your support to the proliferation of such farcical events in the future. You can't continually wash your hands with muddy water, then, expect others to tell you that you're smelling like a rose thereafter.

Reigncourts reply:
The Great Moral Crusader will make sure Manny Pacquiao will not rest assured that his catchweight titles are not criticized and debated endlessly as fake titles. Now you’re hating Pacquiao on account of my defending such titles as legitimate. Again, You don’t fully understand what a catchweight is. Lets move on and stop this nonsense or meet me at my new thread, or I’ll call you out from that side – if this is allowed by forum rules.

reigncourts wrote:
matchbox wrote:
Theres not much fight left for manny ...soon he will retire. thats why its bad news for Bradley, Berto, and Williams. They are not the one that can bring the most money for Pacman. Its hard when you are inside the ring. You try to beat up the other guy but in so doing you also got beat up. Can't blame Manny to look for a much more financially viable fight everytime he goes inside the ring. His choice might not be the most popular one for the fans but financially wise it is the most rewarding.

die hard!!! wrote:
+Yes, lets just enjoy the remaining fight of MP before he retire from boxing for good.
imho, I think MP has 2fights left (May 2011 & Oct/Nov 2011).

I agree with this observation from the start, bro. And sorry for bringing this old issues on catchweight and others. I said I'm not answering anymore questions not relevant to this article.
They go to that thread we agreed upon.

Yes bro, the good thing is MP will be fighting for the another record breaking 8th div.world title. and as a Filipino, we should/must and need to be united as one and show our support to MP's remaining fights.


reigncourts wrote:
So now you have turned into a stalker. I was proving my point on how future generations won’t be raising any fuzz on the legitimacy of Pacquiao’s cathweight titles and you proceed to display you’re “FANTASTIC KNOWLEDGES” of boxing history. But do you really believe I or anyone else would read your irrelevant dissertation of jumbled history? I’m not wasting my time with this useless exercise. Meet me at my new thread if you wish but I’d rather not fill this thread space with useless trash. And btw, you still don’t know what a catchweight is, like Emmanuel53.

helven wrote:
You were the one who brought Ali to the fore with your trivial understanding of his legacy. I just picked up where you left off and set the record straight. What do you expect me to do, gloat over your naive prognosis? This is a debate, if there's any historical fact i twisted - you have the liberty to disprove my statements at your disposal. But instead of doing that, you orchestrated another escape route in the middle of somewhere. Pretty clever exit but it's obvious YOU ARE RUNNING AWAY from the question at hand. It's really hard to sustain a decent argument with you because you can't sustain your position for long. Maybe you're right, this is turning into a useless exercise when the other guy, who has ran out of ammunition, is too proud to yield.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:27 pm 
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helven wrote:
Since boxing is business and boxing dictates that Margarito deserves it more than anyone else - do you think he still deserves the shot if he wasn't a Top Rank guy based on his track record and marketability?

Justify.

How about answering this question now?

IF MARGARITO IS NOT A TOP RANK GUY, DO YOU THINK HE STILL DESERVES IT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE?


reigncourts wrote:
IF MARGARITO IS NOT A TOP RANK GUY MAYBE HE’S BANNED FROM BOXING FOREVER. AND BY THE SAME TOKEN IF MANNY IS NOT A TOP RANK GUY, IT’S DOUBTFUL IF HE HAS GONE PAST HIS FIFTH TITLE. IT IS WITH BOB ARUMS PROMOTIONAL SKILLS THAT LED TO THE PAC-HATTON AND PAC-COTTO FIGHTS. FILIPINO CULTURE DICTATES THAT “YOU DON’T BITE THE HANDS THAT FEEDS YOU” AND MANNY SHOULD NOT BE FAULTED FOR ADHERING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO THIS NORM AS LONG AS HE IS NOT COMMITTING ANY INFRACTION TO THE RULES.

helven wrote:
See how obviously you're trying to divert your shallow answer?
ALL I'M ASKING, IN CASE YOU STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION....

PROVE TO ME THAT MARGARITO IS A WORTHIER OPPONENT THAN ANYBODY ELSE assuming he is not a Top Rank fighter! That question begs for your thorough evaluation of his marketability and latest track record in comparison to BERTO, BRADLEY AND WILLIAMS.

And must you draw a hypothetical parallelism with Manny's career granting he is not a Top Rank fighter too? I didn't ask for that and yet, you're more anxious to elaborate on that matter to make up for your uncertainties with Margarito. With other posters, you might get away with that but now with me. I'll pin you down real hard as soon as i see a little hole in your premise.

Please address my hanging question above with a straightforward answer. I will not let you off the hook until you capitulate.

Reigncourts wrote:
You badgered me with the question assuming Marga is not a Top Rank guy and I gave you a straight answer to a stupid question. Why on earth will you remove Marga from Top Rank and still expect the unknowing cheat to be marketable? Top Rank promotes Margarito and not Dela Hoya. Top Rank defended Margarito and was instrumental in getting back a license from Texas. So without Top Rank, Dela Hoya would have sent Margarito to a wall, blindfolded.

CAPITULATE? :lol:

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I defend PAC on OSDT and Catchweight Issues; Not his Traditional Politics and Religious Exploits.

"Marcos, Hitler, Diktador, TUTA. Patalsikin ang bangkay ni Marcos sa LNMB". PATALSIKIN!!!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:51 pm 
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studstar wrote:
two things for me:

1. margarito of all people does not deserve the payday, so my reason is personal, i dont him him fruther glorified and kids thinking if i have the right connections in business im going to be ok, regardless of the relative ethics involved. its not like there are no other choices, i think margarito should stew a bit more before getting the lotto.

2. i imagine berto, bradley, williams, martinez, while not blockbusters will still do better than clottey. given similar circumstances. all the major sports outlets would eat up this fight more than the margarito fight, yes, nytimes, bostonherald, cnnsi, espn, yahoo, they would all support this fight and conceivably create enough buzz to make it a blockbuster.


That's a very sensible answer my friend. That single post MAKES MORE SENSE than all REIGNCOURTS' posts put together.

reigncourts
Fifty years from now people, even the diehard boxing fans won't even remember Margarito's name, unless he beats Manny. All they will be talking about is only a Great Filipino Boxer was able to achieve 8 titles in as many weight divisions. They would not talk of a die hard, reigncourts, helven or studstar as having helped Manny to reach the top. Does that make sense to us people?

studstar wrote:
^totoo yan brad. we dont matter in the grand scheme of things. i have a 12yr old son though, who is into sports and syempre boxing, he's asked me about the merits of a margarito fight, and i told him basically the same thing i posted. i am not against margo fighting pac, but not this soon, in what really looks like a lottery win. i also believe margarito knew about the plaster, from evreything ive read about the topic he shld know he had something on.

it might not matter to historians and anyone outside my family, but i think it does matter to my son, who still believes in fairness, equality and justice, and i hope it resonates in his lifetime and when he has kids himself.

Helven capitulates:
On a personal note, that is very true. It would have been easier to keep silent about this but seeing someone echoing the absurdity of Bob Arum in this forum is just too much to bear
:bounce1: :bounce1: .

You give me that personal note and i'll gladly accept it like an
RM Award in Pacland Journalism. (3-win, 0-loss) :beer:

_________________
I defend PAC on OSDT and Catchweight Issues; Not his Traditional Politics and Religious Exploits.

"Marcos, Hitler, Diktador, TUTA. Patalsikin ang bangkay ni Marcos sa LNMB". PATALSIKIN!!!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:13 pm 
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of course it will! history will say he fought someone way bigger than him and won. why do you ask?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:21 pm 
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helven wrote:
PROVE TO ME THAT MARGARITO IS A WORTHIER OPPONENT THAN ANYBODY ELSE assuming he is not a Top Rank fighter! That question begs for your thorough evaluation of his marketability and latest track record in comparison to BERTO, BRADLEY AND WILLIAMS.



reigncourts wrote:
You badgered me with the question assuming Marga is not a Top Rank guy and I gave you a straight answer to a stupid question. Why on earth will you remove Marga from Top Rank and still expect the unknowing cheat to be marketable? Top Rank promotes Margarito and not Dela Hoya. Top Rank defended Margarito and was instrumental in getting back a license from Texas. So without Top Rank, Dela Hoya would have sent Margarito to a wall, blindfolded.

CAPITULATE? :lol:


Can't you simply answer the question?
I don't know if you really have a poor comprehension or you're just deliberately trying to ignore it.
See the underlined statement above? That's what i want you to do.

My dear friend...speak of latest accomplishments and PPV track record to justify that MARGARITO is indeed worthier than BERTO, BRADLEY and WILLIAMS. Regardless if he's in Top Rank or not, you still have to evaluate their respective merits.

Wala ka ng kawala, wag ka na magpalusot na kesyo stupid question. Eh hindi mo nga masagot ng diretso, pa ulit ulit ko ng tinatanong sa iyo.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:34 pm 
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You've been losing badly in our discussions that it has taken you 6 ridiculous threads to lead us on and yet, despite your total control of the topics - you can't rationalize your line of argument. Can't you just sit this out and endure the heat til the end instead of escaping and hopping to another thread when you're on the verge of getting trapped? My God, when will you ever quit and just call it a day? :box:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:41 pm 
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well it is a stupid question. not only that you are declaring yourself the winner. ok. go get your reward.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:00 am 
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Ah another one liner guy on the loose. Pity his addled brain couldn't do more.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:14 am 
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oh batman called in robin to bring his thesaurus. well if that makes you feel smarter then good for you.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:49 am 
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Well, I don't need a thesaurus maybe you need a dictionary.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:55 am 
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The fact that this fight is making a lot of buzz means that the promoters made the right decision. Whether people like the match-up or not, people are still talking about it. More so because of the underlying controversies, and from a promoters viewpoint...that is good. That is exactly the reason why this fight is happening.

To answer the TS's question, YES it does, an 8th title is an 8th title and it will be written in history books.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:45 am 
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whew now thats a lot of back up statements :D


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:51 am 
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Yes i agree with the TS, the 8th title will enhance the legacy of pacman and will be remembered through generations to come. Mabuhay ka Manny!! :D


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:00 am 
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for me yes.

first margarito was considered as the best welterwt after winning against cotto. he is one of the fighters mayweather ducked and opted for an early retirement.

margarito won against legitimate welterwt contenders that include cotto, clottey, cintron and martinez.

the jr middlewt belt maybe questionable but the catchwt is a non issue here. maragarto is still a legitimate welterwt who fought just once as a jr middlewt. had that title not at stake, i'm sure the fight would happen at 147lbs!

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