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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:40 pm 
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What can Manny do than what he has already done that would enhance his legacy to fight against Margarito ? Well, to boot ......that he was successful fighting against taller opponents where most people doubts his ability to overcome.....I mean I doubted Pac when he faced ODLH but because I followed Oscars career since the '92 olympics but to me personally if Pac stops at Marg and announced his retirement then hey his legacy will be forever cemented in the boxing annals for time could remember.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:43 pm 
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Yes... a little bit. as Marga is questionable after the plaster issue (did he use it before the mosley fights?).

I don't totally agree with this fight but hey what can we do Floyd doesn't want to be around.(Marga is lucky to be in TR)

What i personally disagree is the Title fight i wont be surprise if WBC would put Marga as no.1 contender. with all this BS as it happened before (sanction bodies put a boxer a no.1 to qualify for a title fight). too much corruptions with the ABC's

for short
Marga is one lucky sun and a beach :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:45 pm 
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Romy Nabas wrote:
definitely yes.

it will give manny an unprecedented 8 belts in 8 different divisions.
a win over margarito will pave the way for cotto rematch (assuming he beat challengers) and possibly fight for unified jr. middleweight and ring title. that would give pacquiao a chance to win 5 lineal titles


Nice bro.you're really an intelijente in boxing but can't you change your avatar ?
The color irritates me, it's like Adok's lechon. :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:47 pm 
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Romy Nabas wrote:
definitely yes.

it will give manny an unprecedented 8 belts in 8 different divisions.
a win over margarito will pave the way for cotto rematch (assuming he beat challengers) and possibly fight for unified jr. middleweight and ring title. that would give pacquiao a chance to win 5 lineal titles


WOW! A fifth Lineal Title for the Pacman? I didn't think about that, but Manny should go for it. Go Manny, so future Filipino generations have something to be proud of and preserve the Legend.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:55 pm 
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No. Manny has nothing to prove fighting Margarcheato. It will not increase his stock. Manny even said he believe Margacheato knows about the illegal hand wrap. Why is he fighting a cheater then? It's illogical.

As for the title fight, they are both not legitimate contenders. This fight should just be treated as an ordinary non-title fight. It’s a cooked title fight considering that it's WBC and obviously they are only after the money for sanctioning it. WBC is a corrupt organization run by corrupt officials led by Sulaiman. It even almost went bankrupt at one time because of its corrupt practices when one boxer sued the organization in court. WBC lost the case and was fined heavily so as they had no other recourse but to declare bankruptcy. Luckily they were able to settle it amicably (with the help of some padrinos) out of court and w/ the boxer agreeing for a lesser compensation.

Notwithstanding these controversies surrounding the fight, I will still watch it and root for Manny.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:24 pm 
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reigncourts wrote:
Mars318 wrote:
Bradley, Berto, Williams have not fought big names while Margarito had fought guys like
Miguel Cotto
Paul Williams
Sergio Martinez
Joshua Clottey
Sugar Shane Mosley
Kermit Cintron

and 44 fights
and was ducked by Floyd Mayweather Jr.


I fully agree. Ask helven.

reigncourts answer:
In addition to Margacheato’s accomplishments stated by Mars318, he is now WBC International Champion for beating Roberto Garcia in a well attended (17,000 fans) in Mexico. Don't even mention the title is a fake because it was used by the Pacman himself in his climb to higher division titles.


Why so defensive?
But Pacman never used it as a ticket to challenge for history-making title fights, let alone a championship for 8th division title. Even when he was an unknown champ, Pac fought Top 10 rated guys, compatriot Reynante Jamili for WBC Int'l. Super Bantamweight and Hector Velasquez for WBC Int'l. Super Featherweight titles.

What was the rating of Roberto Garcia prior to his Jr. Middleweight clash with Margarito?

And would you believe, Margarito is ranked no.1 by WBC Jr. Middleweight now? That's inexplicably higher than Paul Williams who had two respectable wins at Jr. Middleweight versus Kermit Cintron and Verno Phillips! And way higher than Alfredo Angulo who has been beating strong and rated contenders around that division for quite some time.



reigncourts wrote:
Antonio Margarito vs Roberto Garcia Results – Margarito Wins Against Garcia with UD – Here we are to feature boxing match tonight, its going to be with Antonio Margarito vs Roberto Garcia for the top rank PPV. The results are out as of the moment with Margarito Wins Against Garcia with UD. The Boxing match took place at the La Feria de San Marcos , Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico. See some more of the highlights on this Antonio Margarito vs Roberto Garcia Results. And now the Vacant WBC International light middleweight title has a owner and its Antonio Margarito.

Source: World Buzz Now! http://www.worldbuzznow.com/antonio-mar ... z0yLHacCUJ


Who shall i thank that answer for, you or the link you copied verbatim without a word of explanation?

No way you are gonna validate Margarito's win over Garcia more than its received public perception. It's supposed to be one of those uneventful matches that became prestigious overnight the moment Arum signified his intention to pit Margarito with Manny. Hence, the plan for a catchweight Jr. Middleweight title was hatched as soon as WBC got the message. One thing led to another and now, all roads lead to Dallas. Thank God, there's Bob Arum!

When speaking of the marketability of a fighter apart from his popularity - we're giving heavy emphasis on his latest wins or performances regardless of his impressive wins in the past. Add to the fact, Margarito's embattled reputation is well-documented and still feasted upon by the media and fans who are opposed to this bout. We can't just brush aside the negative effects of media backlash on its PPV potential. Early signs are rather uninspiring, odds are heavily stacked against Margarito. In Manny's history at the PPV, fights that were deemed competitive at the betting odds or he was the slight underdog, raked in the most PPV buys. Take for example the case of his rematch with Juan Manuel Marquez, his interesting 7th title challenge with a rejuvenated Cotto, war-of-attrition with Morales, the guaranteed pull of De la Hoya and the massive UK fans of Ricky Hatton. In all those fights, critics were evenly divided about their picks. Undeniable interests were frantically reflected on papers and blogs. However, never was the press more unanimous in their early predictions on Pac-Margarito. Even the fans are more into guessing-game whether Margarito's fate will end by knockout or by referee/corner stoppage. How is that gonna play into public's awareness whose majority are composed of casual fans?

Bradley is a legitimate Jr. Welterweight champ with notable wins over undefeated bright prospects such as Abregu and Paterson, Edner Cherry, Kendall Holt and Junior Witter. He has just won the recent fans poll as Pac's most deserving opponent and he's got the backing of the most respected boxing writers in the business.

Berto, a rising star and legitimate Welterweight titlist, has equally remarkable victories over Carlos Quintana, Juan Urango, Luis Collazo, Steve Forbes, David Estrada, etc. The fact he was once lined up to face Shane Mosley speaks so much of his growing popularity.

Two future stars needing only the proper push can easily be promoted on account of their undefeated record and hot winning streaks. In stark contrast to Margarito who was knocked out by Mosley and was forgettable against Garcia in his last two bouts. Simply speaking, he is not only considered past his prime but a questionable public commodity in lieu of the plaster scandal. Certainly, he doesn't enjoy the support of the powers-that-be in the media circle the way he does with Bob Arum.

If Arum could do wonders with Joshua Clottey's name last time, i believe he can do a lot and much better with young, unbeaten champions who are nothing short of noteworthy in their latest performances.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:55 pm 
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REIGNCOURTS POSTINGS ON CATCHWEIGHTS:


Is Pacquiao the Catchweight King?
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176076&hilit=

Reference Search: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By-n90hHee4

In the past, boxers weigh-in was done on day of the fight. With the advent of television,
(Ali in the 60s) boxing promoters decided to do the weigh ins a day before the fight to have time to promote fights by televised weigh-ins. No problems at first since fighters train to fight at weights same as they weigh in.

As training and conditioning techniques improved however, fighters were able to cut weight and re-hydrate to weight levels above the limit (“gaming the system” is actually weight cheating). This now becomes a problem for the smaller boxers climbing the next division. In some cases a fighter asks for a day of the fight weigh-in. Today, we have the catchweight.

The Leonard-Hagler fight weigh in was made on day of the fight. Both weighed about 160 fight night. Evenly matched.

The Oscar-Pacquiao fight was at 147 catchweight. Manny came in a pound heavier than Oscar at fight night. Oscar could have come 10 lbs heavier but either his conditioning got messed up or he decided to fight Manny at even weights. Fair match-up.

The Floyd-Marquez fight was at 144 catchweight. Floyd came in 146 at weigh-in and according to Marquez, was 15 lbs heavier than himself at fight time. A mismatch.

On Pacquiao-Margarito compared to Leonard-Lalonde Title Grabs

The Pacquiao-Margarito fight is for the vacant WBC Jr. Middleweight title. Pacquiao asks for a catchweight of 150 lbs, Margarito being naturally bigger and will probably weigh 160 at fight night. Manny may do a Leonard and ask for a max 154 lbs max. at fight night so that Margarito can train for it (154 max). A fair demand accepted.

Leonard was not a contender when he fought Hagler (having been retired for 5 years). What he brought to the table was his reputation. The current P4P is enough stature most definitely qualifies the Pacman for a shot at the WBC 154 lb title.

Leonard fought Lalonde for the Super MW (168 lb) and Light HW (175 lbs) titles at a catchweight of 168 lbs. The Ring Magazine now recognize Sugar Ray as Quintuple Champion, counting the two titles he won from Lalonde.

Will history credit The Pacman as kindly as Sugar Ray was credited with two titles he won from Lalonde at a catchweight of 168 lbs? Who's Catchweight King - Manny or Sugar Ray L?

The 2 articles that follow might change our overall perspective on the catchweight issue and when making comparisons between fighters in different eras

1. Originally posted by Ninjamurf
Reference search http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/adcc- ... ndex2.html

The origin of day before weigh in's goes back to when boxing became a big media event in the late 60's, early 70's. Ali was a big part of it. Before that boxers were not only weighed in the "day of" but most were weighed in hours or minutes before the fight. But someone finally figured out, "hey, let's get these guys together the day BEFORE the fight, have them weigh in, do a little press conference, let them talk some smack, and we'll generate even MORE interest in this fight!" But, here's the rub. Back then no one cut. Everyone trained, got into shape, and fought in whatever weight class they NATURALLY belonged in. Not a single fighter bitched and whined about it. Why? Because they all fought at their natural weight anyway. It took a full decade or so before some boxers in the smaller weight classes finally said, "hmm, you know what? I could weigh in on Friday and then add a couple pounds before my fight on Saturday. That might give me an advantage?" Again, it was only a COUPLE of pounds "back in the day." Now fast forward to 2005. The advances in sports medicine and our knowledge of physiology has grown tremendously. Now we have people like Billy Rush who can help a fighter "weigh in" at one weight but actually get him ready to fight 20, 25, even 30 pounds heavier the next day. Technically this may all be "legal" (for all those of you who say it isn't cheating) but the fact is that they are still "gaming the system." I still don't understand how you can have a UFC Welterweight Title match...between 2 guys who enter the Octagon at 190lbs.? (see: GSP vs. Hughes.) Another one that burns me is when Riggs fought Hughes. Hughes weighed in, made 170 and sat down. Immediately began drinking his pedialyte and had a sandwich, power bars, etc. Riggs didn't make weight. Went away to cut. Came back and STILL didn't make weight. Weighed in at 173 I think? The rub? Hughes was sitting right there next to him and actually weighed MORE than Riggs did right at that moment. So what's so special about the weigh in? We have weight classes to try and ensure even matches between competitors who supposedly belong to that weight class. Why the day before? Why not a week before? Hell, I weighed 170 in High School, why can't I take that weight?

Weight classes are there for a reason. "Allowing" fighters to cut defies that reasoning.

2. Martin Rooney, conditioning expert asks;

“Have you ever wondered how an athlete can lose 10-15 pounds in one day for a weigh in and then gain it all back for the fight with no ill effects?”
Search: http://www.grapplearts.com/How-to-Cut-Weight.html

reigncourts wrote:

My stated position on catchweights is: “Considering that today’s weigh-in are done a day before the fight, and that boxers who cut weight have been fighting above the limits of his division, a smaller boxer can ask a bigger boxer in the same division for a day of the fight weigh-in to make sure nobody comes in weighing above the limit. In today’s day before fight weigh-ins that would be the equivalent of a catchweight plus a rehydration clause of the maximum limit the bigger fighter is allowed to weigh above the division limit.”

In relation to Emmanuel53 questions, I offer the following clarificatory statements about the catchweight in Miguel Cotto’s case.

1. Manny fought Cotto at a catchweight of 145 for the 147 title for reason that Manny has never fought a full Welterweight and Manny is P4P and cash King.

2. In a proposed Pac Cotto 2, the fight was shot down not because of weight but based on skills only. Manny’s camp thinks he can beat Cotto at 154, no catchweight.

3. In Pac-Cotto 2, I stipulated that if Cotto has grown to be a walking Super MW (168), can cut weight and be fighting at 154 – Manny can ask Cotto for a catchweight of say, 152 to narrow the advantage for Cotto who may come at a comfortable 165 lbs as against Manny’s 150. The fight would still be a legitimate 154 bout.

4. In the Pac-Margo match-up, again the bigger Margo can cut to 151 catchweight and be fighting at a comfortable 165 compared to Manny’s 150 at fight night. THIS IS AS LEGITIMATE (THOUGH STILL DISADVANTAGEOUS FOR PACMAN) AS A DAY OF FIGHT WEIGH-IN IN ANY RULE BOOK OF BOXING. The consideration on skills apply only on what is to be the agreed weight. If Manny thinks he can beat Margo at a 151 catchweight, then he negotiates and agrees to it.

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"Marcos, Hitler, Diktador, TUTA. Patalsikin ang bangkay ni Marcos sa LNMB". PATALSIKIN!!!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:57 pm 
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he did beat Cotto and Clottey

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:32 pm 
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Consider this quotes:

“Weight classes are there for a reason."Allowing" fighters to cut defies that reasoning.”

“The advances in sports medicine and our knowledge of physiology has grown tremendously. Now we have people like Billy Rush who can help a fighter "weigh in" at one weight but actually get him ready to fight 20, 25, even 30 pounds heavier the next day. Technically this may all be "legal" (for all those of you who say it isn't cheating) but the fact is that they are still "gaming the system."”

Reigncourts comments:

“A rose by any other name would smell as sweet “. “Gaming the system” where boxers cut weight in order to come at weights way over the limit in his division at fight night is still cheating. Here is a chance for the Moral Crusaders to expose to the Boxing world that cutting weight is resulting in weight mismatches that can cause grave injuries to the smaller fighter, (Gatti vs Gamache- Gatti rehydrated to 19 lbs. over Gamache) maybe as bad as a loaded gloves (Resto vs Collins) but definitely more dangerous than the Random Bloosd B/S that the Fraud Mayweathers are fighting for. Let the Crusaders shout “Back to Day of the Fight Weigh-ins”.

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I defend PAC on OSDT and Catchweight Issues; Not his Traditional Politics and Religious Exploits.

"Marcos, Hitler, Diktador, TUTA. Patalsikin ang bangkay ni Marcos sa LNMB". PATALSIKIN!!!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:40 pm 
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Quote:
In relation to Emmanuel53 questions, I offer the following clarificatory statements about the catchweight in Miguel Cotto’s case.

1. Manny fought Cotto at a catchweight of 145 for the 147 title for reason that Manny has never fought a full Welterweight and Manny is P4P and cash King.

2. In a proposed Pac Cotto 2, the fight was shot down not because of weight but based on skills only. Manny’s camp thinks he can beat Cotto at 154, no catchweight.

3. In Pac-Cotto 2, I stipulated that if Cotto has grown to be a walking Super MW (168), can cut weight and be fighting at 154 – Manny can ask Cotto for a catchweight of say, 152 to narrow the advantage for Cotto who may come at a comfortable 165 lbs as against Manny’s 150. The fight would still be a legitimate 154 bout.

4. In the Pac-Margo match-up, again the bigger Margo can cut to 151 catchweight and be fighting at a comfortable 165 compared to Manny’s 150 at fight night. THIS IS AS LEGITIMATE (THOUGH STILL DISADVANTAGEOUS FOR PACMAN) AS A DAY OF FIGHT WEIGH-IN IN ANY RULE BOOK OF BOXING. The consideration on skills apply only on what is to be the agreed weight. If Manny thinks he can beat Margo at a 151 catchweight, then he negotiates and agrees to it.



The above statements don't clarify the issues. On the contrary, they further muddle them.

First, you forget that Manny fought Oscar at 147 lbs. and actually made the fight appear one sided. Oscar is even bigger than Cotto
and based on that performance, it would be safe to say that even if Oscar was allowed to come in at his most comfortable weight., Pacquiao would still be competitive. More importantly it gave you a preview of how Manny would perform against the bigger guys.

Secondly, Pacquiao utterly destroyed Hatton who also campaigned in the welterweight ranks. It took Mayweather, who was consensus pound for pound king , ten rounds to finish Hatton at welterweight. In contrast, Manny barely broke a sweat in that fight. And the kayo punch provided a visible portent of things to come even in the higher weight classes.

Thirdly, you admitted that Manny's skills shot down the proposed second fight against Cotto. These are the same skills which Manny possesses at 147 lbs., so you actually haven't given the justification for the catchweight at 145 lbs. On the contrary, you shot down that argument yourself. Moreover, no matter what stipulations you raise for that proposed second fight against Cotto on weight considerations, THE UNDENIABLE FACT IS IT'S STILL OVER 147 LBS. And same day weigh ins, walking weights, another catchweight, doesn't change that fact.

Fourthly, how can " the consideration of skills apply only on what is to be the agreed weight." In their prime, the skills of a boxer are omnipresent provided they come in great condition. You just admitted that Manny's skills are the same at 147 lbs. and 151 or 154 lbs. so how can this consideration apply only to the agreed weight. Skills transcends weight classes and that is precisely the reason why there are boxers apart from Manny who won titles in different weight classes.

Lastly, I give as an example the Sturm vs. Oscar fight as compared to the Oscar vs. Hopkins contest. Delahoya won the WBO middleweight title over Sturm at the full middleweight limit of 160. pounds, albeit in a controversial fashion. In a unification bout against Hopkins, the fight was held at a catchweight limit of 158 lbs. Sturm, fought most of his bouts at middleweight and is actually still campaigning as a middlweight and thus is as legitimate a middleweight as any boxer out there. So what in the world prompted
Oscar to fight Hopkins at a catchweight?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:55 pm 
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Emmanuel53 wrote:
Quote:
In relation to Emmanuel53 questions, I offer the following clarificatory statements about the catchweight in Miguel Cotto’s case.

1. Manny fought Cotto at a catchweight of 145 for the 147 title for reason that Manny has never fought a full Welterweight and Manny is P4P and cash King.

2. In a proposed Pac Cotto 2, the fight was shot down not because of weight but based on skills only. Manny’s camp thinks he can beat Cotto at 154, no catchweight.

3. In Pac-Cotto 2, I stipulated that if Cotto has grown to be a walking Super MW (168), can cut weight and be fighting at 154 – Manny can ask Cotto for a catchweight of say, 152 to narrow the advantage for Cotto who may come at a comfortable 165 lbs as against Manny’s 150. The fight would still be a legitimate 154 bout.

4. In the Pac-Margo match-up, again the bigger Margo can cut to 151 catchweight and be fighting at a comfortable 165 compared to Manny’s 150 at fight night. THIS IS AS LEGITIMATE (THOUGH STILL DISADVANTAGEOUS FOR PACMAN) AS A DAY OF FIGHT WEIGH-IN IN ANY RULE BOOK OF BOXING. The consideration on skills apply only on what is to be the agreed weight. If Manny thinks he can beat Margo at a 151 catchweight, then he negotiates and agrees to it.



The above statements don't clarify the issues. On the contrary, they further muddle them.

First, you forget that Manny fought Oscar at 147 lbs. and actually made the fight appear one sided. Oscar is even bigger than Cotto
and based on that performance, it would be safe to say that even if Oscar was allowed to come in at his most comfortable weight., Pacquiao would still be competitive. More importantly it gave you a preview of how Manny would perform against the bigger guys.

Secondly, Pacquiao utterly destroyed Hatton who also campaigned in the welterweight ranks. It took Mayweather, who was consensus pound for pound king , ten rounds to finish Hatton at welterweight. In contrast, Manny barely broke a sweat in that fight. And the kayo punch provided a visible portent of things to come even in the higher weight classes.

Thirdly, you admitted that Manny's skills shot down the proposed second fight against Cotto. These are the same skills which Manny possesses at 147 lbs., so you actually haven't given the justification for the catchweight at 145 lbs. On the contrary, you shot down that argument yourself. Moreover, no matter what stipulations you raise for that proposed second fight against Cotto on weight considerations, THE UNDENIABLE FACT IS IT'S STILL OVER 147 LBS. And same day weigh ins, walking weights, another catchweight, doesn't change that fact.

Fourthly, how can " the consideration of skills apply only on what is to be the agreed weight." In their prime, the skills of a boxer are omnipresent provided they come in great condition. You just admitted that Manny's skills are the same at 147 lbs. and 151 or 154 lbs. so how can this consideration apply only to the agreed weight. Skills transcends weight classes and that is precisely the reason why there are boxers apart from Manny who won titles in different weight classes.

Lastly, I give as an example the Sturm vs. Oscar fight as compared to the Oscar vs. Hopkins contest. Delahoya won the WBO middleweight title over Sturm at the full middleweight limit of 160. pounds, albeit in a controversial fashion. In a unification bout against Hopkins, the fight was held at a catchweight limit of 158 lbs. Sturm, fought most of his bouts at middleweight and is actually still campaigning as a middlweight and thus is as legitimate a middleweight as any boxer out there. So what in the world prompted
Oscar to fight Hopkins at a catchweight?


All your statements are your opinions. The question is, do they prove a catchweight fight is not legitimate as implied in these statements?:

helven wrote:
Now tell me, what possible redemption could there be - personal or political - in two historic catchweight wins 50 years from now? Stop living the hype that Manny once fought at Flyweight. He is a legitimate welterweight now as anybody out there. Leniency is relative to the circumstances. Manny, himself, is actually giving those historians something to diminish about his legacy. For whatever it's worth in the final reckoning, he did it so with consent even if Arum, WBC and Texas Boxing Commission are partly to blame.

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I defend PAC on OSDT and Catchweight Issues; Not his Traditional Politics and Religious Exploits.

"Marcos, Hitler, Diktador, TUTA. Patalsikin ang bangkay ni Marcos sa LNMB". PATALSIKIN!!!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:12 pm 
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reigncourts wrote:
helven wrote:
Now tell me, what possible redemption could there be - personal or political - in two historic catchweight wins 50 years from now? Stop living the hype that Manny once fought at Flyweight. He is a legitimate welterweight now as anybody out there. Leniency is relative to the circumstances. Manny, himself, is actually giving those historians something to diminish about his legacy. For whatever it's worth in the final reckoning, he did it so with consent even if Arum, WBC and Texas Boxing Commission are partly to blame.


What do you quote me for?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:17 pm 
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helven wrote:
reigncourts wrote:
helven wrote:
Now tell me, what possible redemption could there be - personal or political - in two historic catchweight wins 50 years from now? Stop living the hype that Manny once fought at Flyweight. He is a legitimate welterweight now as anybody out there. Leniency is relative to the circumstances. Manny, himself, is actually giving those historians something to diminish about his legacy. For whatever it's worth in the final reckoning, he did it so with consent even if Arum, WBC and Texas Boxing Commission are partly to blame.


What do you quote me for?


I said your statement implies a catchweight is not legitimate since it has no redemption value or whatever you mean by that.

_________________
I defend PAC on OSDT and Catchweight Issues; Not his Traditional Politics and Religious Exploits.

"Marcos, Hitler, Diktador, TUTA. Patalsikin ang bangkay ni Marcos sa LNMB". PATALSIKIN!!!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:19 pm 
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reigncourts wrote:
Emmanuel53 wrote:
Quote:
In relation to Emmanuel53 questions, I offer the following clarificatory statements about the catchweight in Miguel Cotto’s case.

1. Manny fought Cotto at a catchweight of 145 for the 147 title for reason that Manny has never fought a full Welterweight and Manny is P4P and cash King.

2. In a proposed Pac Cotto 2, the fight was shot down not because of weight but based on skills only. Manny’s camp thinks he can beat Cotto at 154, no catchweight.

3. In Pac-Cotto 2, I stipulated that if Cotto has grown to be a walking Super MW (168), can cut weight and be fighting at 154 – Manny can ask Cotto for a catchweight of say, 152 to narrow the advantage for Cotto who may come at a comfortable 165 lbs as against Manny’s 150. The fight would still be a legitimate 154 bout.

4. In the Pac-Margo match-up, again the bigger Margo can cut to 151 catchweight and be fighting at a comfortable 165 compared to Manny’s 150 at fight night. THIS IS AS LEGITIMATE (THOUGH STILL DISADVANTAGEOUS FOR PACMAN) AS A DAY OF FIGHT WEIGH-IN IN ANY RULE BOOK OF BOXING. The consideration on skills apply only on what is to be the agreed weight. If Manny thinks he can beat Margo at a 151 catchweight, then he negotiates and agrees to it.



The above statements don't clarify the issues. On the contrary, they further muddle them.

First, you forget that Manny fought Oscar at 147 lbs. and actually made the fight appear one sided. Oscar is even bigger than Cotto
and based on that performance, it would be safe to say that even if Oscar was allowed to come in at his most comfortable weight., Pacquiao would still be competitive. More importantly it gave you a preview of how Manny would perform against the bigger guys.

Secondly, Pacquiao utterly destroyed Hatton who also campaigned in the welterweight ranks. It took Mayweather, who was consensus pound for pound king , ten rounds to finish Hatton at welterweight. In contrast, Manny barely broke a sweat in that fight. And the kayo punch provided a visible portent of things to come even in the higher weight classes.

Thirdly, you admitted that Manny's skills shot down the proposed second fight against Cotto. These are the same skills which Manny possesses at 147 lbs., so you actually haven't given the justification for the catchweight at 145 lbs. On the contrary, you shot down that argument yourself. Moreover, no matter what stipulations you raise for that proposed second fight against Cotto on weight considerations, THE UNDENIABLE FACT IS IT'S STILL OVER 147 LBS. And same day weigh ins, walking weights, another catchweight, doesn't change that fact.

Fourthly, how can " the consideration of skills apply only on what is to be the agreed weight." In their prime, the skills of a boxer are omnipresent provided they come in great condition. You just admitted that Manny's skills are the same at 147 lbs. and 151 or 154 lbs. so how can this consideration apply only to the agreed weight. Skills transcends weight classes and that is precisely the reason why there are boxers apart from Manny who won titles in different weight classes.

Lastly, I give as an example the Sturm vs. Oscar fight as compared to the Oscar vs. Hopkins contest. Delahoya won the WBO middleweight title over Sturm at the full middleweight limit of 160. pounds, albeit in a controversial fashion. In a unification bout against Hopkins, the fight was held at a catchweight limit of 158 lbs. Sturm, fought most of his bouts at middleweight and is actually still campaigning as a middlweight and thus is as legitimate a middleweight as any boxer out there. So what in the world prompted
Oscar to fight Hopkins at a catchweight?


All your statements are your opinions. The question is, do they prove a catchweight fight is not legitimate as implied in these statements?:

helven wrote:
Now tell me, what possible redemption could there be - personal or political - in two historic catchweight wins 50 years from now? Stop living the hype that Manny once fought at Flyweight. He is a legitimate welterweight now as anybody out there. Leniency is relative to the circumstances. Manny, himself, is actually giving those historians something to diminish about his legacy. For whatever it's worth in the final reckoning, he did it so with consent even if Arum, WBC and Texas Boxing Commission are partly to blame.



You are funny you know. And what are we discussing here - are these not opinions? Your opinion, my opinion, Helven's opinion. If there is certainty in everything, then there would be no argument or discussion in the first place.

But I'll give you some facts. Your logic that "the consideration of skills apply on what is to be the agreed weight" sucks big time. Is that not an OPINION ON YOUR PART TOO?The prime example is Manny. How many times have you read that Manny CARRIED HIS SPEED AND POWER THRU THE WEIGHT CLASSES AND HAS IN FACT IMPROVED HIS OVERALL BOXING SKILLS ? Was Pernell Whitaker less evasive in the welterweight class in his prime, than in the lightweight division where he began? And didn't the Sturm vs Oscar fight take place at the full division limit as compared to the Oscar vs. Hopkins fight which took place at a catchweight? How can you even make that TYPE OF A RETORT IF YOU REPRESENT YOURSELF AS A RATIONAL AND THINKING BOXING FAN? If THAT TYPE OF STATEMENT MIRRORS YOUR THINKING PROCESS, THEN YOU'RE A BOXING PSEUDO-EXPERT WANNABE.
And please don't divert the issues as you're wont to do under duress. I just answered the points which were directed at me. I am giving the courtesy to Helven who's more than capable of defending his position.
Now I'm awaiting your retort on those points which you raised.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:31 pm 
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reigncourts wrote:
helven wrote:
reigncourts wrote:
helven wrote:
Now tell me, what possible redemption could there be - personal or political - in two historic catchweight wins 50 years from now? Stop living the hype that Manny once fought at Flyweight. He is a legitimate welterweight now as anybody out there. Leniency is relative to the circumstances. Manny, himself, is actually giving those historians something to diminish about his legacy. For whatever it's worth in the final reckoning, he did it so with consent even if Arum, WBC and Texas Boxing Commission are partly to blame.


What do you quote me for?


I said your statement implies a catchweight is not legitimate since it has no redemption value or whatever you mean by that.


How many times do i have to ask you to PRODUCE my statement that says CATCHWEIGHT is not LEGITIMATE? You can't pin me down by merely misinterpreting my implication which i meant otherwise.

Please refer to this page of your previous thread and review carefully >>> viewtopic.php?f=104&t=176886&start=45&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I'm tired of going thru the same vicious circle with you, you don't seem to absorb anything.
Refer to that link please...

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