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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:39 pm 
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reigncourts wrote:
IF MARGARITO IS NOT A TOP RANK GUY MAYBE HE’S BANNED FROM BOXING FOREVER. AND BY THE SAME TOKEN IF MANNY IS NOT A TOP RANK GUY, IT’S DOUBTFUL IF HE HAS GONE PAST HIS FIFTH TITLE. IT IS WITH BOB ARUMS PROMOTIONAL SKILLS THAT LED TO THE PAC-HATTON AND PAC-COTTO FIGHTS. FILIPINO CULTURE DICTATES THAT “YOU DON’T BITE THE HANDS THAT FEEDS YOU” AND MANNY SHOULD NOT BE FAULTED FOR ADHERING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO THIS NORM AS LONG AS HE IS NOT COMMITTING ANY INFRACTION TO THE RULES.

I rest my case on catchweights and the moral issues on Pacquiao vs Margarito match-up.
Let others have their say.


if manny is not a top rank guy, he's a golden boy guy and he will still get his fifth title. it is with schaefer's promotional skills that will led to the pac-hatton and probably pac-mayweather fights.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:27 pm 
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jr_PH wrote:
reigncourts wrote:
IF MARGARITO IS NOT A TOP RANK GUY MAYBE HE’S BANNED FROM BOXING FOREVER. AND BY THE SAME TOKEN IF MANNY IS NOT A TOP RANK GUY, IT’S DOUBTFUL IF HE HAS GONE PAST HIS FIFTH TITLE. IT IS WITH BOB ARUMS PROMOTIONAL SKILLS THAT LED TO THE PAC-HATTON AND PAC-COTTO FIGHTS. FILIPINO CULTURE DICTATES THAT “YOU DON’T BITE THE HANDS THAT FEEDS YOU” AND MANNY SHOULD NOT BE FAULTED FOR ADHERING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO THIS NORM AS LONG AS HE IS NOT COMMITTING ANY INFRACTION TO THE RULES.

I rest my case on catchweights and the moral issues on Pacquiao vs Margarito match-up.
Let others have their say.


if manny is not a top rank guy, he's a golden boy guy and he will still get his fifth title. it is with schaefer's promotional skills that will led to the pac-hatton and probably pac-mayweather fights.


And with the Golden Boy allowing Manny to be blood tested 10 times including day of the fight in a match-up with Mayweather, Floyd would have beat a blood drained Manny already. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:48 pm 
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Emmanuel53
Hocus pocus - foolishness or empty pretense used especially to disguise deception or chicanery. How can this type of manipulation enhance Manny's legacy?

Reigncourts answer:
This chicanery has been going on for a long time and most of the legacy of those legends have been enhanced. Now we don’t need to dig all history to prove this point. Leonard’s 4th title, the Super MW is a new addition by WBC and it was arranged as an incentive for Leonard to take the fight.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:03 pm 
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reigncourts wrote:
Emmanuel53
Hocus pocus - foolishness or empty pretense used especially to disguise deception or chicanery. How can this type of manipulation enhance Manny's legacy?

Reigncourts answer:
This chicanery has been going on for a long time and most of the legacy of those legends have been enhanced. Now we don’t need to dig all history to prove this point. Leonard’s 4th title, the Super MW is a new addition by WBC and it was arranged as an incentive for Leonard to take the fight.


I don't wanna play the race card here but do you think the Americans will embrace Manny's legacy, it's merits and flaws, in the same manner they did with Duran or Leonard?

This is a very sensitive issue i've dealt with in the past, i would just like to know your opinion.
Since we're speaking of LEGACY, taking into consideration his BWAA FOTY and FOTD awards, 8 division titles(if he wins in November) - do you think he'll get his fair shake in the annals of boxing's greatest as EASILY and FAIRLY as you presume?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:58 pm 
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reigncourts wrote:
JCOOL2329 wrote:
All Pac is doin is adding to his legacy but he needs not to prove himself although a trilogy with Marquez will surely convince the critics that Manny has stepped up the ladder of ranks and to finally close the coffin on this debacle.......I may predict that a fight with Floyda might just happen......since he has said recently that he's agreed to the test so theres still a crack in the door......2cents.


I got your point, bro. The purpose of this thread is based on my belief that Mayweather will never fight Pacquiao. I am convinced he's making a detour off Pacquiao towards achieving a better legacy. In a nutshell, he comes back after Manny retires, beats a carefully picked MW and Super MW champion for his 6th and 7th titles and he ties Manny's record. If in the process he gets his own BWAA and retires undefeated, he is indeed #1 GOAT. But with Manny's 8th title, Floyd has no more choice but to beat Manny to improve his legacy.


Even if Floyd beats Manny and gets his own 8 division titles in the process - the GOAT is still a dream.
In our time with 17 weight classes and at least 4 or 5 recognized corrupt ABC titles per division(WBC,WBA,IBF, WBO, IBO and whatever), only the weight divisions and ABC titles have prospered - not the quality of fighters. In the 40s, 50s, 60s,70s and 80s - there were at least 5 ALL-TIME GREATS active in any weight division. How many do we have now? Not counting the soon-to-be-retired Hopkins, we've got Manny Pacquiao and most possibly Floyd Mayweather, Jr. himself. There are issues about Manny being qualified in the Top 10, 20 or 30 ATG list in lieu of his more sterling body of achievements. As fine as he is, even boxing experts have reservations about Floyd's legacy and his special place in the Top 80 owing to the fact he still lives under the realm of a carefully-managed career and still trudging on a much-criticized level of opposition since he vacated the Lightweight division. To accomplish what you think is possible, Floyd has to coexist with and must fight the greatest fighters of his era. But there's only one within his reach and yet, he is reluctant to test his perceived superiority. Even if he beats Manny, the nonexistence of definitive fights in the horizon to level up with his revered predecessors deter him from even coming close to the zenith. Collecting a few more belts will surely enhance his legacy but only to some extent because there was never really a great man behind his list and there's only one ahead he doesn't want to mess with. Unlike in the days of Leonard, any which way he looked over his shoulders - there were Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran standing by...and not far ahead, there was Marvin Hagler. Greatness was proven with actions, not with words - Leonard fought and beat them all to prove his worth. Still, he is just number 9 among the greatest ever and we're only speaking of the lesser Sugar with as many belts. How could a Floyd Mayweather, Jr. even top that?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:27 pm 
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helven wrote:
reigncourts wrote:
Emmanuel53
Hocus pocus - foolishness or empty pretense used especially to disguise deception or chicanery. How can this type of manipulation enhance Manny's legacy?

Reigncourts answer:
This chicanery has been going on for a long time and most of the legacy of those legends have been enhanced. Now we don’t need to dig all history to prove this point. Leonard’s 4th title, the Super MW is a new addition by WBC and it was arranged as an incentive for Leonard to take the fight.


I don't wanna play the race card here but do you think the Americans will embrace Manny's legacy, it's merits and flaws, in the same manner they did with Duran or Leonard?

This is a very sensitive issue i've dealt with in the past, i would just like to know your opinion.
Since we're speaking of LEGACY, taking into consideration his BWAA FOTY and FOTD awards, 8 division titles(if he wins in November) - do you think he'll get his fair shake in the annals of boxing's greatest as EASILY and FAIRLY as you presume?


Our point here is if Manny wins the eight title it would almost be impossible for Floyd to overtake Manny in the GOAT rankings. If Floyd is ranked finally at # 10, Manny will qualify as #5 to #9. But Floyd can never be #1 because of Manny. Why? It's because they are contemporaries and in the same division.

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"Marcos, Hitler, Diktador, TUTA. Patalsikin ang bangkay ni Marcos sa LNMB". PATALSIKIN!!!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:48 pm 
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helven wrote:



Even if Floyd beats Manny and gets his own 8 division titles in the process - the GOAT is still a dream.
In our time with 17 weight classes and at least 4 or 5 recognized corrupt ABC titles per division(WBC,WBA,IBF, WBO, IBO and whatever), only the weight divisions and ABC titles have prospered - not the quality of fighters. In the 40s, 50s, 60s,70s and 80s - there were at least 5 ALL-TIME GREATS active in any weight division. How many do we have now? Not counting the soon-to-be-retired Hopkins, we've got Manny Pacquiao and most possibly Floyd Mayweather, Jr. himself. There are issues about Manny being qualified in the Top 10, 20 or 30 ATG list in lieu of his more sterling body of achievements. As fine as he is, even boxing experts have reservations about Floyd's legacy and his special place in the Top 80 owing to the fact he still lives under the realm of a carefully-managed career and still trudging on a much-criticized level of opposition since he vacated the Lightweight division. To accomplish what you think is possible, Floyd has to coexist with and must fight the greatest fighters of his era. But there's only one within his reach and yet, he is reluctant to test his perceived superiority. Even if he beats Manny, the nonexistence of definitive fights in the horizon to level up with his revered predecessors deter him from even coming close to the zenith. Collecting a few more belts will surely enhance his legacy but only to some extent because there was never really a great man behind his list and there's only one ahead he doesn't want to mess with. Unlike in the days of Leonard, any which way he looked over his shoulders - there were Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran standing by...and not far ahead, there was Marvin Hagler. Greatness was proven with actions, not with words - Leonard fought and beat them all to prove his worth. Still, he is just number 9 among the greatest ever and we're only speaking of the lesser Sugar with as many belts. How could a Floyd Mayweather, Jr. even top that?


Now this again is proving to be long winded discussions and may not prove productive. Remember when I asked for the time? Will an eight title for Manny enhance his legacy? It's seems your answer is no or with reservations and you have justified it over and over in this forum. I respect you for that, and now I want to gauge if "half of Paclanders" share your opinion.

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"Marcos, Hitler, Diktador, TUTA. Patalsikin ang bangkay ni Marcos sa LNMB". PATALSIKIN!!!
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:06 am 
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stop bursting his bubble. he is on a mission. he is certain that his idol will not be a goat if he fights marga. he even supplied the equation that would rival einstein's. well that's that then. forget the goat.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:10 am 
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reigncourts wrote:

Our point here is if Manny wins the eight title it would almost be impossible for Floyd overtake in the GOAT rankings. If Floyd is ranked finally at # 10, Manny will qualify as #5 to #9. But Floyd can never be #1 because of Manny. Why? It's because they are contemporaries and in the same division.


That statement completely contradicts your highlighted statement below....


reigncourts wrote:
I got your point, bro. The purpose of this thread is based on my belief that Mayweather will never fight Pacquiao. I am convinced he's making a detour off Pacquiao towards achieving a better legacy. In a nutshell, he comes back after Manny retires, beats a carefully picked MW and Super MW champion for his 6th and 7th titles and he ties Manny's record. If in the process he gets his own BWAA and retires undefeated, he is indeed #1 GOAT. But with Manny's 8th title, Floyd has no more choice but to beat Manny to improve his legacy.


You said that assuming Floyd avoids Manny and collects his own belts to match Manny's 8, he can retire undefeated and here's the best part of your declaration - HE IS INDEED # 1 GOAT!

Did i miss anything?

You're confusing the measure of greatness with the number of belts. Ali has got only one-the Heavyweight, yet, he's no. 3 and way higher than quintuple champion Tommy Hearns. Henry Armstrong's got more belts than Sugar Ray Robinson and still, the former was a distant second. Granting some of those greats fought at the original 8 weight divisions - the foremost, and most essential, in consideration is THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION and the QUALITY OF BEATEN OPPOSITIONS. All three legends mentioned had resumes adorned with the who's who in the ATG list.

As it applies to both Manny and Floyd - two rival contemporaries- majority, if not all, of boxing critics are unanimous in saying that Manny owns a much accomplished career. If a fight between them is never consummated, it's Floyd's loss, not his. Because he can ride off the sunset tomorrow and still, nobody can accuse him of avoiding the best fighters around his weight divisions. And that's one thing Floyd needs to do, despite his superior proclamations, to enhance his own stock or to salvage whatever is left of his legacy.

It's about time you disengage Manny from Floyd as if his legacy depends on the other. That whatever Manny does, he must outdo his contemporary. He already did and it's Floyd who badly needs some catching up to even come close. You should be talking of Manny in the same breath as Leonard, Sanchez, Hagler, etc. - NOT FLOYD!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:11 am 
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Are belts the primary consideration in the ATG rankings? I don't believe so. Duran's CONTEMPORARIES include, Leonard, Hearns, Benitez and Hagler . Duran even lost to all four. Leonard and Hearns have more belts than Roberto but are ranked lower in the ATG rankings. And despite significant size disadvantages in size as he went up in weight class, Roberto did not ask for any catchweight, relying instead on his skills and heart to carry the day. Duran isn't even American and as far as I know doesn't speak English.
So this continuous bluster on the significance of Manny's eight belts, if he wins the bout over Margo, is misleading. Boxing historians are far from the shallow minds that some people here perceive them to be.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:21 am 
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reigncourts wrote:
helven wrote:



Even if Floyd beats Manny and gets his own 8 division titles in the process - the GOAT is still a dream.
In our time with 17 weight classes and at least 4 or 5 recognized corrupt ABC titles per division(WBC,WBA,IBF, WBO, IBO and whatever), only the weight divisions and ABC titles have prospered - not the quality of fighters. In the 40s, 50s, 60s,70s and 80s - there were at least 5 ALL-TIME GREATS active in any weight division. How many do we have now? Not counting the soon-to-be-retired Hopkins, we've got Manny Pacquiao and most possibly Floyd Mayweather, Jr. himself. There are issues about Manny being qualified in the Top 10, 20 or 30 ATG list in lieu of his more sterling body of achievements. As fine as he is, even boxing experts have reservations about Floyd's legacy and his special place in the Top 80 owing to the fact he still lives under the realm of a carefully-managed career and still trudging on a much-criticized level of opposition since he vacated the Lightweight division. To accomplish what you think is possible, Floyd has to coexist with and must fight the greatest fighters of his era. But there's only one within his reach and yet, he is reluctant to test his perceived superiority. Even if he beats Manny, the nonexistence of definitive fights in the horizon to level up with his revered predecessors deter him from even coming close to the zenith. Collecting a few more belts will surely enhance his legacy but only to some extent because there was never really a great man behind his list and there's only one ahead he doesn't want to mess with. Unlike in the days of Leonard, any which way he looked over his shoulders - there were Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran standing by...and not far ahead, there was Marvin Hagler. Greatness was proven with actions, not with words - Leonard fought and beat them all to prove his worth. Still, he is just number 9 among the greatest ever and we're only speaking of the lesser Sugar with as many belts. How could a Floyd Mayweather, Jr. even top that?


Now this again is proving to be long winded discussions and may not prove productive. Remember when I asked for the time? Will an eight title for Manny enhance his legacy? It's seems your answer is no or with reservations and you have justified it over and over in this forum. I respect you for that, and now I want to gauge if "half of Paclanders" share your opinion.


Because you have no retort?
You're speaking of LEGACY. In relation to boxing, that is ENCOMPASSING. You can't see the other end of the tunnel unless you go thru his whole body of achievements and its impact in the future. If you are privy about long-winded discussions - then make simple threads about Manny's mustache, his hair or his height. Hell, i promise to be there if you make one about your favorite subject - orgasm.

Seriously, if you think many paclanders are opposed to my views, they are very much welcome to a productive discussion you can't sustain.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:56 am 
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helven wrote:

Unlike in the days of Leonard, any which way he looked over his shoulders - there were Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran standing by...and not far ahead, there was Marvin Hagler. Greatness was proven with actions, not with words - Leonard fought and beat them all to prove his worth. Still, he is just number 9 among the greatest ever and we're only speaking of the lesser Sugar with as many belts. How could a Floyd Mayweather, Jr. even top that?


On second thought, I picked the last portion of your statement for it’s relevance to the topic. The GOAT P4P rankings are based on “fighters beating the best fighters in his division more convincingly than other fighters beat the best fighters in their division”. Duran has fought and beat the best in the Lightweight Division for a longer period than Leonard has beat the best in any division (Lightweight, Welterweight & Middleweight).
In Leonard’s favor is in beating more Hall of Famers in Duran, Hagler , Benitez etc. But Duran’s exploits in the Lightweight Division fits more the definition of P4P great since he became the Lightweight #1 GOAT and #5 or #6 P4P GOAT as compared to Leonard’s #9 P4P GOAT ranking. In a related video, I made the following introduction;

“Floyd Mayweather claims he’s better than Sugar Ray Robinson. Since many people consider it disrespect to the first “Sugar Ray” Robinson, the #1 P4P GOAT to mention the names Floyd Mayweather Jr. or Manny Pacquiao as comparable in greatness, I choose the second “Sugar Ray” Leonard for comparison.” This statement shows my regards to the top 10 GOAT fighters.

Floyd Mayweather Jr vs Sugar Ray Leonard; Who’s better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rEByYwt ... re=channel

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"Marcos, Hitler, Diktador, TUTA. Patalsikin ang bangkay ni Marcos sa LNMB". PATALSIKIN!!!
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:04 am 
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Emmanuel53 wrote:
Are belts the primary consideration in the ATG rankings? I don't believe so. Duran's CONTEMPORARIES include, Leonard, Hearns, Benitez and Hagler . Duran even lost to all four. Leonard and Hearns have more belts than Roberto but are ranked lower in the ATG rankings. And despite significant size disadvantages in size as he went up in weight class, Roberto did not ask for any catchweight, relying instead on his skills and heart to carry the day. Duran isn't even American and as far as I know doesn't speak English.
So this continuous bluster on the significance of Manny's eight belts, if he wins the bout over Margo, is misleading. Boxing historians are far from the shallow minds that some people here perceive them to be.

The GOAT P4P rankings are based on “fighters beating the best fighters in his division more convincingly than other fighters beat the best fighters in their division”. Duran has fought and beat the best in the Lightweight Division for a longer period than Leonard has beat the best in any division (Lightweight, Welterweight & Middleweight).
In Leonard’s favor is in beating more Hall of Famers in Duran, Hagler , Benitez etc. But Duran’s exploits in the Lightweight Division fits more the definition of P4P great since he became the Lightweight #1 GOAT and #5 or #6 P4P GOAT as compared to Leonard’s #9 P4P GOAT ranking. In a related video, I made the following introduction;

“Floyd Mayweather claims he’s better than Sugar Ray Robinson. Since many people consider it disrespect to the first “Sugar Ray” Robinson, the #1 P4P GOAT to mention the names Floyd Mayweather Jr. or Manny Pacquiao as comparable in greatness, I choose the second “Sugar Ray” Leonard for comparison.” This statement shows my regards to the top 10 GOAT fighters.

Floyd Mayweather Jr vs Sugar Ray Leonard; Who’s better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rEByYwt ... re=channel

_________________
I defend PAC on OSDT and Catchweight Issues; Not his Traditional Politics and Religious Exploits.

"Marcos, Hitler, Diktador, TUTA. Patalsikin ang bangkay ni Marcos sa LNMB". PATALSIKIN!!!
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:18 am 
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Here's one question i've been wanting to ask even before i met you...
I think, i'll be addressing this at the proper time and to the proper person.

Here's a short backgrounder before i throw in my question.
We know Manny has 3 losses and 2 draws. 2 of those losses came during his early career. The last came against Erik Morales and until then, he never looked back. Floyd always makes a lot of fuss about those 3 losses, most especially the 2 knockouts, in his rants to discredit Manny. Looking at the bright side, inspite of his few defeats - Manny went on to conquer unimaginable heights to solidify his legacy. Simply speaking, his legacy withstood setbacks which were, in fact, considered by many as catalysts to the turning points of his career.

Floyd, whose invincibility is built around his unblemished record and untested skills, knows that his 41-0 is his badge of greatness. There lies his fame, fortune, marketability, mystique and self-proclaimed superiority.

Now, the question...

If the time comes he gets defeated which of course will hurt his image - do you consider it a mere aberration to his quest to greatness (or GOAT as you claimed) or will his stock plummet and even if he bounces back - will he be viewed with the same prestige they accord Manny now?

Just share your thoughts...

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:26 am 
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reigncourts wrote:
helven wrote:

Unlike in the days of Leonard, any which way he looked over his shoulders - there were Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran standing by...and not far ahead, there was Marvin Hagler. Greatness was proven with actions, not with words - Leonard fought and beat them all to prove his worth. Still, he is just number 9 among the greatest ever and we're only speaking of the lesser Sugar with as many belts. How could a Floyd Mayweather, Jr. even top that?


On second thought, I picked the last portion of your statement for it’s relevance to the topic. The GOAT P4P rankings are based on “fighters beating the best fighters in his division more convincingly than other fighters beat the best fighters in their division”. Duran has fought and beat the best in the Lightweight Division for a longer period than Leonard has beat the best in any division (Lightweight, Welterweight & Middleweight).
In Leonard’s favor is in beating more Hall of Famers in Duran, Hagler , Benitez etc. But Duran’s exploits in the Lightweight Division fits more the definition of P4P great since he became the Lightweight #1 GOAT and #5 or #6 P4P GOAT as compared to Leonard’s #9 P4P GOAT ranking. In a related video, I made the following introduction;

“Floyd Mayweather claims he’s better than Sugar Ray Robinson. Since many people consider it disrespect to the first “Sugar Ray” Robinson, the #1 P4P GOAT to mention the names Floyd Mayweather Jr. or Manny Pacquiao as comparable in greatness, I choose the second “Sugar Ray” Leonard for comparison.” This statement shows my regards to the top 10 GOAT fighters.

Floyd Mayweather Jr vs Sugar Ray Leonard; Who’s better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rEByYwt ... re=channel



Therefore, you agree with me that the number of BELTS is of lesser value with respect to QUALITY OF COMPETITION and BEATEN OPPOSITIONS by way of comparison?

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