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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:25 pm 
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hate math
but i love this thread.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:30 am 
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miron_lang wrote:
I can accept that score also


but judges refrain from having 10-10 rounds they usually declares a winner.



116-112 MANNY PACQUIAO!!

with preference to aggression and shots landed


I had it 115-113 but 116-112 is not ridiculous as what Nathaniels had implied.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:38 am 
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please read Chuck Giampa's take on JMM-PAC. He basically outlined all the major points argued by those who said JMM won the fight: http://www.fightsaga.com/news/item/1610 ... dge-s-Take

Quote:
Well-respected, retired judge Chuck Giampa paid a visit to Zute's Boxing Talk last week to give his opinion of the scoring controversy in the aftermath of Pacquiao vs Marquez III.
Chuck Giampa, once one of the top boxing judges in the world, had an illustrious career and participated in many memorable championship fights including Holyfield vs Bowe and Holyfield vs Tyson II. He has served as a judge for over 120 world championship fights in addition to many regional and international title fights in Europe, Asia and South America.

Giampa was adamant that Juan Manuel Marquez beat Manny Pacquiao comfortably. His score for Pacquiao vs Marquez III differed quite a bit from the three official scorecards handed in November 12 as well as some, if not most, of the press reporters at ringside. And according to Giampa, even the score of 114-114 is unacceptable because it indicates Pacquiao did enough to retain his title.
Giampa scored the fight in favor of Juan Manuel Marquez 116-112.


Those who felt the fight was close or could have gone either way often suggest most fans do not know how to score a professional prize fight but Giampa was a seasoned judge, having scored some of the biggest fights in the last thirty years.

So why did Chuck see a different fight than the judges?

Pacquiao's Footwork
Manny Pacquiao, as usual, displayed excellent footwork in this bout. His footwork is exemplary and Giampa believes its possible some judges can be mesmerized by it. Giampa asserted he never let a fighter's superior footwork influence his judging. "The footwork doesn't mean anything (with regards to scoring a bout)," stated Giampa.

Chuck further explained a boxer's superior footwork only means something if he is using it to better position himself to land effective shots, counter punch and cut off the ring. If a fighter doesn't do those things, his footwork may be aesthetically-pleasing but should have to effect on judging.

"This is not Dancing with the Stars, this is boxing," said Chuck.

Effective Aggression
"The main thing you look at is effective aggressiveness," said Giampa. And while Manny Pacquiao was pressing the fight and was far more aggressive, Giampa believes Marquez's counter-punching limited Pacquiao to simply that - an aggressor.

Points are not awarded for aggression - They are awarded for effective aggression. According to Giampa, an effective aggressor would have been able to mitigate Marquez's counter-punching and land more punches of his own.
"When Manny did land a good shot, Marquez would come back with one or two more and a few times he stopped Pacquiao in his tracks... that was not effective aggression."


Work-Rate
Those who believe Pacquiao won will also cite his superior work-rate. According to official fight statistics from CompuBox, a program that counts and categorizes punches in boxing matches, the more aggressive Manny Pacquiao threw and landed more punches than Marquez and even connected on more power-shots (or non jabs).

While CompuBox metrics serve as good information and are nice to show to viewers, judges don't see them during the fight and, as a result, don't take them into consideration in scoring. In addition, CompuBox metrics - even if accurate - can be misleading.

"(Compu Box) Punch stats do not take into consideration what (punch) is effective." Chuck felt Marquez's' punches where "clearly more effective."

Only in amateur boxing, where a clean jab is worth as much as a hard punch that generates a knockdown, does landing more punches justify a win.


Champion's Benefit of the Doubt in Scoring
Lastly, many who argue Pacquiao deserved a win or draw will assert that a champion must be more decisively beaten to have his title taken from him and that the champion must be given the benefit of the doubt in rounds that are very close. Although its not an official rule, it's a philosophical notion that's infiltrated the sport almost as long as its existence.

Giampa, himself, disputed the old-age notion saying, "Technically he is not the champ anymore when the bell rings. He literally gives his belt up - They are fighting for the belt."


According to the famed former judge, the notion of giving the champion the benefit of the doubt when assessing close rounds was dropped in the 1950's and that all judges should know that the champion is, literally, not the champion anymore when the fight starts. "We (were) taught that in Nevada for years."
Chuck is very passionate about how judges should approach their work and was puzzled by the scoring of Pacquiao vs Marquez III.

"I honestly don't know what these judges were watching.... I will be interviewing the judges."

Chuck Giampa Today
Chuck now writes for The Ring. His articles, written from a judge's standpoint, focus on topics and subject matter that relate to officiating in the sport. He also holds seminars for judges on a consistent basis.

Giampa has appeared on Zute's Boxing Talk multiple times and has always given us straight talk. As an esteemed former judge with years of 'high- profile' fight experience, Giampa's opinion must be respected, even if challenged.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:39 am 
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Chuck Giampa KNOWS.... :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:07 pm 
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Was this Giampa guy at the ring side when he did this observation? If not then what he said is no different from you and others opinion :lol:

As i have been said before nobody's credible except the three official ring judges who scores the fight, not even Giampa :shock:

Stop it already, Pacman won at that is what matters. I believe Pacman has 4 fights left so lets just up-hold him and hopefully Nonito will continue that, agree? 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:17 pm 
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That's also a good score from Giampa.


again 116-112 either way is a good score. there's no point in trying to convince anybody who doesnt share the same score. 8 rounds are extremely close that its justifiable whoever you give it to.


the 3rd fight is the most convincing victory if you are a consistent judge who doest split rounds just to make it a close score card.


I - 113-112 Pacquiao
II - 114-113 Pacquiao
III - 116-112 Pacquiao

btw

Dave Moretti > Chuck Giampa

:D

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:25 pm 
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lmao, this chuck giampa guy has been involvved in some notable "robberies" himself it seems - just looking at whats said abuot him


"This jack *** has f'ed up many of fights. Glad to see he has retired.

Some of his fights.....

* Had JC Chavez ahead of Whitaker 105-104 heading into the 12th
* Scored Barerra v Morales II 116-112 for Barerra
* Scored B Pacquiao over C Hernandez 95-94
* Scored Ponce de Leon over Penalosa 119-109

I'm sure I'm missing some others"


never even watchd any of those matches as i only follow pacquiao really :D


but still, this subversive guy is seriously butthurt at pacquiao winning.


what part of; absolutely ZERO of the rightside judges had marquez winning....do you not unnderstand?


Please subversive - give your scorecard ; heres mine

Pac
Jmm
Pac
Pac
Jmm
Pac
Jmm
Jmm
Pac
Pac
Pac
Pac

you dont judge based on how you feel at the end - you look at each round, and you score a winner and loser. no matter howw close it is, the official juges hardly ever give a 10-10 round, so there must be a winner and loser, and 90% of the time, it is the aggressor who wins.
Show us all your scorecard, and it better be something huge like 117-111 for marquez, because that would be your only legitimate claim to robbery.



pacquiao was evenn better at counterpunching than marquez imo - and had pacquiao laid back the whole fightt and counterpunched, i guarantee he would have KO'd jmm. however, pacquiao is the ppv star - it is his obligation to go forward and that plays right into the hands of jmm.

all this talk of "theirr styles are perfect" is silly in my opinion - i see itt more as a stylistic mismatch in favor of JMM - i feel tthat withthe 2 of them, the one going forward is at the disadvantage - and pac's economic drawing power was at risk if he doesnt go forward. marquez had nothing to lose by sitting back - he is going back to selling 3 pay perviews after this anyway.

the fact that pacquiao made it close [and imo won a lot of those "close" rounds] deserves credit and that is why the judges favored him.

if you are going to lay back and counterpunch you have to dominate rounds big, just like how marquez did in 5 and 7 - but i also gave him 2 and 8.

other than that - marquez did not immpress me - pacquiao was not that impressive either - but the fault lies with marquez who was too damn terrified of getting ko'd by pacqiao to ever take risks and come forward.

you get rewarded for risk, and that is why i gave pacquiao the majority of the close rounds.

116-112 pacquiao


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:31 pm 
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JMM won rds. 2, 5 & 7....couple of rounds were close but Pac won this one. No robbery here just some gay whiners who can't accept a loss.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:11 pm 
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TheSubversive wrote:
Chuck Giampa KNOWS.... :lol:


I always see the phrase "NONITO HATERS: THE WORST OF PINOY MENTALITY" in your post and but I don't get why you bash another filipino, a true filipino born and raised in the Philippines.

I have also noticed that when people bash on Nonito you were always there to defend him just like the way Manny fans defend their idol. So why do you use the phrase to defend Nonito when the said phrase could also be attributed to Manny haters?

Just wondering.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:00 pm 
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Other controversial fight which Giampa as a judge

He score 114-112 for montiel vs gorres.

He criticize the judges in PacMan vs JMM III but his score in montiel vs. gorres is also questionable.


Hmmmm...


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:14 pm 
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TheSubversive wrote:
Chuck Giampa KNOWS.... :lol:

if Chuck Giampa commented the contrary, will you bother to post that article? 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:44 pm 
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also scored it 116-112 for pac..
Pac: Rds. 1,3,4,8,9,10,11,12..
JMM: Rds. 2,5,6,7..

had it even after 6 rounds..gave rds. 8-12 to pac bcoz he is more agressive than the 1st half..jmm is still waiting & countering but not as solid as the 1st half of the fight, fading a bit maybe..pac is the champ, jmm is the challenger..he should have shown that he wants it more than pac..the fight could have gone either way though, many swing rounds, depends on their basis of scoring..they are really made for each other..judges are the official scorer so respect them whiners..

also wonder how one filipino commentator scored it 116-114 during the Philippine broadcast?..and they kept saying that 116-112 is a ridiculous score?..


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:59 pm 
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poppom wrote:
lmao, this chuck giampa guy has been involvved in some notable "robberies" himself it seems - just looking at whats said abuot him


"This jack *** has f'ed up many of fights. Glad to see he has retired.

Some of his fights.....

* Had JC Chavez ahead of Whitaker 105-104 heading into the 12th
* Scored Barerra v Morales II 116-112 for Barerra
* Scored B Pacquiao over C Hernandez 95-94
* Scored Ponce de Leon over Penalosa 119-109

I'm sure I'm missing some others"


never even watchd any of those matches as i only follow pacquiao really :D


but still, this subversive guy is seriously butthurt at pacquiao winning.


what part of; absolutely ZERO of the rightside judges had marquez winning....do you not unnderstand?


Please subversive - give your scorecard ; heres mine

Pac
Jmm
Pac
Pac
Jmm
Pac
Jmm
Jmm
Pac
Pac
Pac
Pac

you dont judge based on how you feel at the end - you look at each round, and you score a winner and loser. no matter howw close it is, the official juges hardly ever give a 10-10 round, so there must be a winner and loser, and 90% of the time, it is the aggressor who wins.
Show us all your scorecard, and it better be something huge like 117-111 for marquez, because that would be your only legitimate claim to robbery.



pacquiao was evenn better at counterpunching than marquez imo - and had pacquiao laid back the whole fightt and counterpunched, i guarantee he would have KO'd jmm. however, pacquiao is the ppv star - it is his obligation to go forward and that plays right into the hands of jmm.

all this talk of "theirr styles are perfect" is silly in my opinion - i see itt more as a stylistic mismatch in favor of JMM - i feel tthat withthe 2 of them, the one going forward is at the disadvantage - and pac's economic drawing power was at risk if he doesnt go forward. marquez had nothing to lose by sitting back - he is going back to selling 3 pay perviews after this anyway.

the fact that pacquiao made it close [and imo won a lot of those "close" rounds] deserves credit and that is why the judges favored him.

if you are going to lay back and counterpunch you have to dominate rounds big, just like how marquez did in 5 and 7 - but i also gave him 2 and 8.

other than that - marquez did not immpress me - pacquiao was not that impressive either - but the fault lies with marquez who was too damn terrified of getting ko'd by pacqiao to ever take risks and come forward.

you get rewarded for risk, and that is why i gave pacquiao the majority of the close rounds.

116-112 pacquiao


gotcha bro..in an interview, pac admitted that in the 1st half of the fight he is waiting for jmm to attack first for him to counter, that's why for other whiners it looked like that pac didn't looked as usual..it is just pac being more technical and not being the careless guy he had been..but after 6 rounds, he realized that jmm will keep waiting and countering, so he was more aggressive in the late rounds..jmm didn't attack bcoz it is the reason why he lost their rematch, the counter left cross by pac when he was attacking..


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:28 pm 
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The first time I watched the fight, I agreed with Lederman's scoring, i.e., Pacquiao 116 - 112 Marquez.

Clearly, Pacquiao has mastered Marquez, such that no matter how many times they fight, Pacquiao will always emerge on top.

Time to move on. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:41 pm 
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The effects of the punches can be easily seen when one looks at both faces after the fight.

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