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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:29 am 
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Very sweet and very technical analysis...Man you guys till had to do the Math...I suck with numbers...All i know is that Pac really trains hardcore...And intense training pays off..Everyone's excited! GO PAC!!!!

Matrix wrote:
jesguerra wrote:
First off, with all due respect to the true champion Morales, this article is not meant to degrade his abilitities nor question his warrior spirit. I will merely dissect the facts and lead to my own conclusion.

Now, we all know that Morales has been training up in the Otomi mountains for this upcoming fight. He has practically lived at this high altitude. I will repost the 1st and 2nd paragraph of this article from "http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0239.htm" to prove a point. Heikki K. Rusko, Ph.D wrote:

"As we've reported many times in PEAK PERFORMANCE, living at altitude is great for the endurance athlete. Moderate to high-altitude living increases red-blood-cell concentrations, allowing more oxygen to reach the muscles during exercise, and also hikes the levels of an important chemical called 2.3-DPG, which helps 'release' oxygen from red blood cells to the muscles during intense exercise

The problem with altitude, though, is that training there stinks. By limiting the amount of oxygen that can reach the muscles, altitude lowers average workout quality. Most athletes carry out both their continuous and interval workouts about 5-10 per cent less intensely at altitude, compared to sea level (here intensity is defined as speed of movement, not percentage of max heart rate). Interestingly, recent research suggests that altitude's slowing effects may begin to show up at elevations of only 2000 feet or so, far below the 4000-5000 feet mark which has usually been linked with downgraded performances. Training more slowly is hardly the way to become a better performer."

Tadaah! :idea:

Observation #1: It has been written in two separate articles the speed at which Pac & Erik run their respective routes. Erik runs 7 miles in about 70 minutes while Pac runs 6 miles in 37 minutes. I know about the altitude factor but common, the discrepancy is too large. Morales runs 1 mile more but yet finishes 33 minutes later...hmmm. And Pacquiao isn't exaclty running strictly on flatland either. The hills in Hollywood reaches probably up to 2,000 feet above see level. Now that article above gets a little more clearer.

Observation #2: Erik has been dubbed a slow starter. Now we know why. It's due to his high altitude training. It takes him a while to get acclimated on sea level, especially his handspeed and footwork. Remember the Barrera fight when he said afterwards that his body couldn't react like he wanted to in the earlier rounds...point proven.

Observation #3: Pac speed is already superior in the first place, so imagine his advantage come fight night.

Observation #4: Sure Marquez dominated the later rounds but what happened to him again in the 1st round...slow start anyone? And how does Marquez train again...if I'm not mistaken...high altitude!

Conclusion: Based on the article and my factual observations, an athlete's performance can deteriorate by training at high altitudes. It may be great for long distance runners for stamina but handspeed and quick footwork is key in boxing. Manny on the other hand is training at a perfect setting. He runs at high altitudes for stamina, then hones his skills at sea level where he can achieve maximum speed. I don't have the credibility to tell Coach Roach, but I think he should instruct Pac to go for the kill from the opening bell. Don't wait for Erik to adjust in the later rounds like what he did with Barrera, and what Marquez did against Pacquiao. Coach mentioned to do this earlier, but now he is saying that Pac will pick his spots to attack. My first prediction was Pac by KO in the late rounds, but now if Pac goes for the jugular early, this could be an early night folks.


A very good observation bro and a logical conclusion. However , i have some comments on the running rate computations you did (its just trivial thing). EM runs 7 miles in 70mins, that goes to say that his running speed is 0.1 mile/min. While MP runs 6miles for only 37min, and therfore his running at a rate of 0.16mile/min. Given their rates, if they started running at the same time, after 37 mins, MP has already completed 6miles, while EM is still at 3.7miles. So he still has 33mins to complete his 7mile running distance. But the point is still the same , MP runs faster than EM. :P


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:33 am 
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ah ganun pala un.. :smoke:

:celebrate:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:38 am 
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galing mo talaga mag predict pre ina analyze mo muna at naggagather ka ng information.

jesguerra is the next Nostradamus if manny wins.
ay correction when manny wins pala


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:12 pm 
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Somonami wrote:
Intelligent discussion! Kudos to all of you especially to Jess for starting such profitable calisthenics. I know a lot more of members and lurkers here are not just ordinary rah-rah type of Pacfans. Keep them coming Brods!

BTW, what could had been the cause of the sprained hand? We know that foot blisters were caused by cheap socks (sucks). Could sprained hand have come from overtraining? or from lack of consistent disciplined training even outside of preparation camps for a scheduled bout and not just cram to be in shape?

Just curious. Jess, how are you related to the journalist with a similar-sounding name?

Nice one! Peace.


*******


No relation pre! Thank you all. Not only for the nice compliments, but also the intelligent counter opinions. I'm sure mine is only one of many that us Pacfans are capable of dishing out. Mabuhay tayong mga Pilipino!

Let us all pray for Pacman's success come March 19th.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:23 pm 
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great!!!

go for the kill


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:51 am 
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Calling Morales' supporters. I would like to hear from you on this one!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:05 am 
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jesguerra wrote:
First off, with all due respect to the true champion Morales, this article is not meant to degrade his abilitities nor question his warrior spirit. I will merely dissect the facts and lead to my own conclusion.

Now, we all know that Morales has been training up in the Otomi mountains for this upcoming fight. He has practically lived at this high altitude. I will repost the 1st and 2nd paragraph of this article from "http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0239.htm" to prove a point. Heikki K. Rusko, Ph.D wrote:

"As we've reported many times in PEAK PERFORMANCE, living at altitude is great for the endurance athlete. Moderate to high-altitude living increases red-blood-cell concentrations, allowing more oxygen to reach the muscles during exercise, and also hikes the levels of an important chemical called 2.3-DPG, which helps 'release' oxygen from red blood cells to the muscles during intense exercise.

The problem with altitude, though, is that training there stinks. By limiting the amount of oxygen that can reach the muscles, altitude lowers average workout quality. Most athletes carry out both their continuous and interval workouts about 5-10 per cent less intensely at altitude, compared to sea level (here intensity is defined as speed of movement, not percentage of max heart rate). Interestingly, recent research suggests that altitude's slowing effects may begin to show up at elevations of only 2000 feet or so, far below the 4000-5000 feet mark which has usually been linked with downgraded performances. Training more slowly is hardly the way to become a better performer."

Tadaah! :idea:

Observation #1: It has been written in two separate articles the speed at which Pac & Erik run their respective routes. Erik runs 7 miles in about 70 minutes while Pac runs 6 miles in 37 minutes. I know about the altitude factor but common, the discrepancy is too large. Morales runs 1 mile more but yet finishes 33 minutes later...hmmm. And Pacquiao isn't exaclty running strictly on flatland either. The hills in Hollywood reaches probably up to 2,000 feet above sea level. Now that article above gets a little more clearer.

Observation #2: Erik has been dubbed a slow starter. Now we know why. It's due to his high altitude training. It takes him awhile to get acclimated on sea level, especially his handspeed and footwork. Remember the Barrera fight when he said afterwards that his body couldn't react like he wanted to in the earlier rounds...point proven.

Observation #3: Pac speed is already superior in the first place, so imagine his advantage come fight night.

Observation #4: Sure, Marquez dominated the later rounds, but what happened to him again in the 1st round...slow start anyone? And how does Marquez train again...if I'm not mistaken...high altitude!

Conclusion: Based on the article and my factual observations, an athlete's performance can deteriorate by training at high altitudes. It may be great for long distance runners for stamina but handspeed and quick footwork are key in boxing. Manny on the other hand is training at a perfect setting. He runs at high altitudes for stamina, then hones his skills at sea level where he can achieve maximum speed. I don't have the credibility to tell Coach Roach, but I think he should instruct Pac to go for the kill from the opening bell. Don't wait for Erik to adjust in the later rounds like what he did with Barrera, and what Marquez did against Pacquiao. Coach mentioned to do this earlier, but now he is saying that Pac will pick his spots to attack. My first prediction was Pac by KO in the late rounds, but now if Pac goes for the jugular early, this could be an early night folks.


what a nice observation bro... you done your research well bro,,,,, yeah!!! why not suggest it to coach roach if posible.... take morales on the first round... yeah boy!!!! good job!!! :drinking: :celebrate:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:55 am 
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jesguerra wrote:
JoeyInCali wrote:
Quote:
You can't attribute only Morales' training for his slow start. There are a lot of other possible reasons why he started slow. Maybe he LIKES to start slow, checking the opponents movements, testing this move here and there, getting in the grove, so to speak.

I agree.
J.E. I respect your theries bro, but some fighters are just slow starters. Maybe it's the jitters. In the MAB-EM III fight, EM was tentative in the first 5 rounds while MAB KNEW what he had to do. He to press forward as EM hates fighting backwards.
If I were Manny and Roach I couldn't care less how or where EM trained. I'd watch his videos and find holes in his game.
I think if Manny keeps moving his head, darting in and out, EM gets beat easily. EM's punches are slow but they are plentiful when they come.
I'd tell Manny to keep circling around EM's left side all night and keep banging at his body.


You have a point, too! All I'm trying to do is point out EM's tendencies due to his training. Maybe his tendencies are not due to what I observed, but it makes sense.

Certainly though, working EM's body is a GREAT idea!


Good analyses and exchanges here as in the rest of the thread. With due respect, IMO high altitude training has little to do with slow starters vs. explosive fighters. I think it's mostly the fighter's "in-bred" style that sets that tone and there are tons of great fighters who were/are notorious slow starters (careful/deliberate is prolly a better term) ..... Hopkins, Arguello, Ali with certain fights, etc. without the altitude influence...... in the same vein that naturally explosive fighters like Pryor, Frazier Tyson, Pac, Duran would not be materially slowed down by altitude training. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Duran, one of the most explosive ever, also did some altitude training himself.

My take on why Morales was training up in the Otomi is that he's working on endurance and will try to go the distance replicating what JMM did from round 3-12 with Pac. He'll box all night if necessary while looking to slip his rights here and there, then brawl when he senses he can take Pac's bombs. Much as that hurts his macho pride, it's his only chance and I'm sure folks around him has convinced him of such, or at least made him aware. I still predict Pac's phenomenal stamina will enable him to execute the same workrate and explosiveness thru the late rounds and EM wilts from a barrage of combos via KO/TKO in or after round 10. Just my 2 cents here.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:00 am 
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barajador wrote:
jesguerra wrote:
JoeyInCali wrote:
Quote:
You can't attribute only Morales' training for his slow start. There are a lot of other possible reasons why he started slow. Maybe he LIKES to start slow, checking the opponents movements, testing this move here and there, getting in the grove, so to speak.

I agree.
J.E. I respect your theries bro, but some fighters are just slow starters. Maybe it's the jitters. In the MAB-EM III fight, EM was tentative in the first 5 rounds while MAB KNEW what he had to do. He to press forward as EM hates fighting backwards.
If I were Manny and Roach I couldn't care less how or where EM trained. I'd watch his videos and find holes in his game.
I think if Manny keeps moving his head, darting in and out, EM gets beat easily. EM's punches are slow but they are plentiful when they come.
I'd tell Manny to keep circling around EM's left side all night and keep banging at his body.


You have a point, too! All I'm trying to do is point out EM's tendencies due to his training. Maybe his tendencies are not due to what I observed, but it makes sense.

Certainly though, working EM's body is a GREAT idea!


Good analyses and exchanges here as in the rest of the thread. With due respect, IMO high altitude training has little to do with slow starters vs. explosive fighters. I think it's mostly the fighter's "in-bred" style that sets that tone and there are tons of great fighters who were/are notorious slow starters (careful/deliberate is prolly a better term) ..... Hopkins, Arguello, Ali with certain fights, etc. without the altitude influence...... in the same vein that naturally explosive fighters like Pryor, Frazier Tyson, Pac, Duran would not be materially slowed down by altitude training. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Duran, one of the most explosive ever, also did some altitude training himself.

My take on why Morales was training up in the Otomi is that he's working on endurance and will try to go the distance replicating what JMM did from round 3-12 with Pac. He'll box all night if necessary while looking to slip his rights here and there, then brawl when he senses he can take Pac's bombs. Much as that hurts his macho pride, it's his only chance and I'm sure folks around him has convinced him of such, or at least made him aware. I still predict Pac's phenomenal stamina will enable him to execute the same workrate and explosiveness thru the late rounds and EM wilts from a barrage of combos via KO/TKO in or after round 10. Just my 2 cents here.


Point well taken. About Duran, did he live up on high altitude throughout his training days or did he just go up there when doing his roadwork?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:10 am 
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jesguerra wrote:
barajador wrote:
jesguerra wrote:
JoeyInCali wrote:
Quote:
You can't attribute only Morales' training for his slow start. There are a lot of other possible reasons why he started slow. Maybe he LIKES to start slow, checking the opponents movements, testing this move here and there, getting in the grove, so to speak.

I agree.
J.E. I respect your theries bro, but some fighters are just slow starters. Maybe it's the jitters. In the MAB-EM III fight, EM was tentative in the first 5 rounds while MAB KNEW what he had to do. He to press forward as EM hates fighting backwards.
If I were Manny and Roach I couldn't care less how or where EM trained. I'd watch his videos and find holes in his game.
I think if Manny keeps moving his head, darting in and out, EM gets beat easily. EM's punches are slow but they are plentiful when they come.
I'd tell Manny to keep circling around EM's left side all night and keep banging at his body.


You have a point, too! All I'm trying to do is point out EM's tendencies due to his training. Maybe his tendencies are not due to what I observed, but it makes sense.

Certainly though, working EM's body is a GREAT idea!


Good analyses and exchanges here as in the rest of the thread. With due respect, IMO high altitude training has little to do with slow starters vs. explosive fighters. I think it's mostly the fighter's "in-bred" style that sets that tone and there are tons of great fighters who were/are notorious slow starters (careful/deliberate is prolly a better term) ..... Hopkins, Arguello, Ali with certain fights, etc. without the altitude influence...... in the same vein that naturally explosive fighters like Pryor, Frazier Tyson, Pac, Duran would not be materially slowed down by altitude training. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Duran, one of the most explosive ever, also did some altitude training himself.

My take on why Morales was training up in the Otomi is that he's working on endurance and will try to go the distance replicating what JMM did from round 3-12 with Pac. He'll box all night if necessary while looking to slip his rights here and there, then brawl when he senses he can take Pac's bombs. Much as that hurts his macho pride, it's his only chance and I'm sure folks around him has convinced him of such, or at least made him aware. I still predict Pac's phenomenal stamina will enable him to execute the same workrate and explosiveness thru the late rounds and EM wilts from a barrage of combos via KO/TKO in or after round 10. Just my 2 cents here.


Point well taken. About Duran, did he live up on high altitude throughout his training days or did he just go up there when doing his roadwork?


I don't think he did it consistently since he spent a lot of his non-boxing time in Miami where he lived.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:23 am 
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Very Good!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:42 am 
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WELL DONE RESEARCH AND ANALYSIS! KEEP IT UP.

:swordplay:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:48 am 
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feather duster wrote:
Very Good!!!


Thanks no. 1 MOST BEAUTIFUL Female fan of Pacman.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:16 am 
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Nice observation bro... Husay ng analysis mo.
kaya nga lang weakness ko pareho kay Legend.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:24 am 
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galeng mo dude....


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