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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:11 pm 
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Nice post jesguerra, good analysis!
but the legend posted a more sensual one, my t level is going up, peace bro


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:51 pm 
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jesguerra wrote:
First off, with all due respect to the true champion Morales, this article is not meant to degrade his abilitities nor question his warrior spirit. I will merely dissect the facts and lead to my own conclusion.

Now, we all know that Morales has been training up in the Otomi mountains for this upcoming fight. He has practically lived at this high altitude. I will repost the 1st and 2nd paragraph of this article from "http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0239.htm" to prove a point. Heikki K. Rusko, Ph.D wrote:

"As we've reported many times in PEAK PERFORMANCE, living at altitude is great for the endurance athlete. Moderate to high-altitude living increases red-blood-cell concentrations, allowing more oxygen to reach the muscles during exercise, and also hikes the levels of an important chemical called 2.3-DPG, which helps 'release' oxygen from red blood cells to the muscles during intense exercise.

The problem with altitude, though, is that training there stinks. By limiting the amount of oxygen that can reach the muscles, altitude lowers average workout quality. Most athletes carry out both their continuous and interval workouts about 5-10 per cent less intensely at altitude, compared to sea level (here intensity is defined as speed of movement, not percentage of max heart rate). Interestingly, recent research suggests that altitude's slowing effects may begin to show up at elevations of only 2000 feet or so, far below the 4000-5000 feet mark which has usually been linked with downgraded performances. Training more slowly is hardly the way to become a better performer."

Tadaah! :idea:

Observation #1: It has been written in two separate articles the speed at which Pac & Erik run their respective routes. Erik runs 7 miles in about 70 minutes while Pac runs 6 miles in 37 minutes. I know about the altitude factor but common, the discrepancy is too large. Morales runs 1 mile more but yet finishes 33 minutes later...hmmm. And Pacquiao isn't exaclty running strictly on flatland either. The hills in Hollywood reaches probably up to 2,000 feet above sea level. Now that article above gets a little more clearer.

Observation #2: Erik has been dubbed a slow starter. Now we know why. It's due to his high altitude training. It takes him awhile to get acclimated on sea level, especially his handspeed and footwork. Remember the Barrera fight when he said afterwards that his body couldn't react like he wanted to in the earlier rounds...point proven.

Observation #3: Pac speed is already superior in the first place, so imagine his advantage come fight night.

Observation #4: Sure, Marquez dominated the later rounds, but what happened to him again in the 1st round...slow start anyone? And how does Marquez train again...if I'm not mistaken...high altitude!

Conclusion: Based on the article and my factual observations, an athlete's performance can deteriorate by training at high altitudes. It may be great for long distance runners for stamina but handspeed and quick footwork are key in boxing. Manny on the other hand is training at a perfect setting. He runs at high altitudes for stamina, then hones his skills at sea level where he can achieve maximum speed. I don't have the credibility to tell Coach Roach, but I think he should instruct Pac to go for the kill from the opening bell. Don't wait for Erik to adjust in the later rounds like what he did with Barrera, and what Marquez did against Pacquiao. Coach mentioned to do this earlier, but now he is saying that Pac will pick his spots to attack. My first prediction was Pac by KO in the late rounds, but now if Pac goes for the jugular early, this could be an early night folks.


looks like you put a lot of effort on your post, good post.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:04 pm 
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Location: sunnyvale cali
wow.. tis gotta be nice news... NOT GOOD NEWS..
but it helps... i think boxers like eric morales has a highly knowledgeable and intelligent training staff. they're well aware of these things.. it all just depends on the super fight on 19th...
i like the way you said about the early knockout though.. i think manny should gamble on the opening rounds. i mean like, "GAMBLE his STAMINA in trade for the QUICK TKO!"
boy, i cant wait til the fight night....


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:47 pm 
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jesguerra wrote:
First off, with all due respect to the true champion Morales, this article is not meant to degrade his abilitities nor question his warrior spirit. I will merely dissect the facts and lead to my own conclusion.

Now, we all know that Morales has been training up in the Otomi mountains for this upcoming fight. He has practically lived at this high altitude. I will repost the 1st and 2nd paragraph of this article from "http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0239.htm" to prove a point. Heikki K. Rusko, Ph.D wrote:

"As we've reported many times in PEAK PERFORMANCE, living at altitude is great for the endurance athlete. Moderate to high-altitude living increases red-blood-cell concentrations, allowing more oxygen to reach the muscles during exercise, and also hikes the levels of an important chemical called 2.3-DPG, which helps 'release' oxygen from red blood cells to the muscles during intense exercise.






The problem with altitude, though, is that training there stinks. By limiting the amount of oxygen that can reach the muscles, altitude lowers average workout quality. Most athletes carry out both their continuous and interval workouts about 5-10 per cent less intensely at altitude, compared to sea level (here intensity is defined as speed of movement, not percentage of max heart rate). Interestingly, recent research suggests that altitude's slowing effects may begin to show up at elevations of only 2000 feet or so, far below the 4000-5000 feet mark which has usually been linked with downgraded performances. Training more slowly is hardly the way to become a better performer."

Tadaah! :idea:

Observation #1: It has been written in two separate articles the speed at which Pac & Erik run their respective routes. Erik runs 7 miles in about 70 minutes while Pac runs 6 miles in 37 minutes. I know about the altitude factor but common, the discrepancy is too large. Morales runs 1 mile more but yet finishes 33 minutes later...hmmm. And Pacquiao isn't exaclty running strictly on flatland either. The hills in Hollywood reaches probably up to 2,000 feet above sea level. Now that article above gets a little more clearer.

Observation #2: Erik has been dubbed a slow starter. Now we know why. It's due to his high altitude training. It takes him awhile to get acclimated on sea level, especially his handspeed and footwork. Remember the Barrera fight when he said afterwards that his body couldn't react like he wanted to in the earlier rounds...point proven.

Observation #3: Pac speed is already superior in the first place, so imagine his advantage come fight night.

Observation #4: Sure, Marquez dominated the later rounds, but what happened to him again in the 1st round...slow start anyone? And how does Marquez train again...if I'm not mistaken...high altitude!

Conclusion: Based on the article and my factual observations, an athlete's performance can deteriorate by training at high altitudes. It may be great for long distance runners for stamina but handspeed and quick footwork are key in boxing. Manny on the other hand is training at a perfect setting. He runs at high altitudes for stamina, then hones his skills at sea level where he can achieve maximum speed. I don't have the credibility to tell Coach Roach, but I think he should instruct Pac to go for the kill from the opening bell. Don't wait for Erik to adjust in the later rounds like what he did with Barrera, and what Marquez did against Pacquiao. Coach mentioned to do this earlier, but now he is saying that Pac will pick his spots to attack. My first prediction was Pac by KO in the late rounds, but now if Pac goes for the jugular early, this could be an early night folks.



itaas mo ....javascript:emoticon(':toast:')
Toast


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:28 pm 
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I like that analysis of yours bro!! Let me add some more. It's about the "MYTH" in thinking that a high-altitude training will be an advantage.

Furthermore, while adaptation to high altitude makes you better at high altitude it hasn't proved useful for making you faster at sea level. There is a lot of mysticism that surrounds the belief of enhanced sea-level performance after altitude training, but the current scientific evidence is lacking. The reason is that some of the adaptive responses at high altitude are actually a hindrance at lower altitude.

There is some more recent evidence to suggest that a "train-low, sleep high" approach may confer some advantages. In this scenario, training is carried out at low altitude -- to push anaerobic threshold, and VO2 max --but sleeping is done at high altitude so that the hypoxic stress increases red cell mass. Certainly a creative approach and one which might yield excellent results, because it may give the athlete the "best of both worlds". In a practical sense it may be difficult to construct, but if you are lucky enough to live in a situation that allows this type of training, it is worthy of consideration.


I don't know, but perhaps, there is also a reason why Eric is doing this kind of training. Or maybe he is just stubborn. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, though. I mean, look at his record.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:33 pm 
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[b]Attack! Attack! Attack!
Dont give EM(his body) a chance to acclimated on sea level. That's a good scientific analysis. Please dont pass it to EM camp. It's our secret... mmm? Manila ICE?[/
b] :?: :?: :?:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:57 pm 
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Galing, para akong nanood ng national geographics.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:01 am 
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This thread sounds like the NGC and Discovery combined./ Keep it coming bros.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:03 am 
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geekman wrote:
I like that analysis of yours bro!! Let me add some more. It's about the "MYTH" in thinking that a high-altitude training will be an advantage.

Furthermore, while adaptation to high altitude makes you better at high altitude it hasn't proved useful for making you faster at sea level. There is a lot of mysticism that surrounds the belief of enhanced sea-level performance after altitude training, but the current scientific evidence is lacking. The reason is that some of the adaptive responses at high altitude are actually a hindrance at lower altitude.

There is some more recent evidence to suggest that a "train-low, sleep high" approach may confer some advantages. In this scenario, training is carried out at low altitude -- to push anaerobic threshold, and VO2 max --but sleeping is done at high altitude so that the hypoxic stress increases red cell mass. Certainly a creative approach and one which might yield excellent results, because it may give the athlete the "best of both worlds". In a practical sense it may be difficult to construct, but if you are lucky enough to live in a situation that allows this type of training, it is worthy of consideration.


I don't know, but perhaps, there is also a reason why Eric is doing this kind of training. Or maybe he is just stubborn. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, though. I mean, look at his record.


Thanks for the addition! You have a point about his record, but keep in mind that he has natural boxing genes. I think he was born on the 2nd floor of a boxing gym and started putting the gloves on at the age of 4. So, biologically, he has the skills. It is his training that is in question. Also, he has never fought anyone with the handspeed of Pac. I guess we will just have to wait and see the quickness comparison.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:04 am 
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On the topic of High altitude training. read below
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HIGH ALTITUDE and ATHLETIC TRAINING

The underlying problem with high altitude (>2000 m) is that there is less oxygen and while this may not be that threatening to individuals at rest it does pose a challenge to athletes. Of course for the pure anaerobic events no adaptation is required so this discussion is necessarily focused on endurance training and competition. In general the higher the altitude the longer it takes to adapt. Understanding the adaptation process and the things that you can do to aid it will make for a less taxing transition. A number of physiologic changes occur to allow for acclimatization at high altitude. These can be divided into immediate, which take place over several days, and long term which requires weeks to a few months.

The first thing that happens is your respiratory rate and heart rates speed up. This occurs both at rest and during sub-max. exercise. This helps offset the lower partial pressure of oxygen. You will not be able to reach your max VO2 so don't get frustrated. The faster breathing rate changes your acid-base balance and this takes a little longer to correct.

The longer term changes are

1. a decrease in maximum cardiac output a decreased maximum heart rate
2. an increased number of red blood cells
3. excretion of base via the kidneys to restore acid-base balance. (Unfortunately, the net result is that you have less tolerance for lactic acid.)
4. a chemical change within red blood cells that makes them more efficient at unloading oxygen to the tissues.
5. an increase in the number of mitochondria and oxidative enzymes.

PRACTICAL IMPLICATIONS FOR ATHLETES

1. Diet - A high carbohydrate, low salt diet allows for better adaptation and less risk of "mountain sickness". Some people experience significant decline in appetite and the resulting loss of muscle mass may hinder performance. Iron is used to make hemoglobin and the demand for making more red blood cells may require iron supplementation -- especially in women and vegetarians. Megadoses of vitamins are not helpful and are potentially dangerous.
2. Fluids - Because mountain air is cool and dry you can lose a lot of water so be sure to maintain adequate hydration.
3. Alcohol - It is best to avoid alcohol consumption during the acclimatization period since it appears to increase the risk of "mountain sickness".

WORKOUT INTENSITY - This will necessarily be lower until adaptation can occur. Pushing your workouts too hard may increase your risk of overtraining or injury. Additionally some people just do not adapt as well as others. There is not one workout program that is appropriate for everyone -- just like at sea level. It is best to keep a log in which you rate fatigue during workout and at rest, morning resting heart rate, weight, and mood. Correlate this with the intensity of your workouts and this will help mold a flexible routine that is right for you.

PERFORMANCE
The body's adaptation to high altitude helps significantly but doesn't fully compensate for the lack of oxygen. There is a drop in VO2 max of 2% for every 300 m elevation above 1500 m even after allowing for full acclimatization. I know that this is a difficult concept to believe because so many programs have touted the benefits of high altitude training.To fully appreciate this realize that there aren't any world record times at high altitudes. Think about this a moment. The air density is much lower, thus wind resistance is much lower. Wind resistance is the cyclists biggest barrier to speed. If all other factors were equal, then there must be faster times at higher altitudes. Because there aren't, means that something else must have decreased. That something is the engine -- the human engine.

Furthermore, while adaptation to high altitude makes you better at high altitude it hasn't proved useful for making you faster at sea level. There is a lot of mysticism that surrounds the belief of enhanced sea-level performance after altitude training, but the current scientific evidence is lacking. The reason is that some of the adaptive responses at high altitude are actually a hindrance at lower altitude. As more research is done then perhaps a training regimen that shows definitive improvement will emerge. The best advice as of 1994 is that high-altitude training is like "magic shoes" -- If it works for you then wear them.

There is some more recent evidence to suggest that a "train-low, sleep high" approach may confer some advantages. In this scenario, training is carried out at low altitude -- to push anaerobic threshold, and VO2 max --but sleeping is done at high altitude so that the hypoxic stress increases red cell mass. Certainly a creative approach and one which might yield excellent results, because it may give the athlete the "best of both worlds". In a practical sense it may be difficult to construct, but if you are lucky enough to live in a situation that allows this type of training, it is worthy of consideration.

WHAT IS MOUNTAIN SICKNESS ?
Mountain sickness is the name given to a cluster of symptoms that occurs in some individuals after rapid ascent to high altitude. Mild forms of the illness may affect up to 50% of people traveling to altitudes above 14,000 ft. Severe forms of the illness may be life threatening because of pulmonary or cerebral edema.

Symptoms of headache, malaise, and decreased appetite are fairly common amongst individuals traveling to altitudes greater than 8,000 ft -- although this can occur at lower altitudes. The mild forms of mountain sickness can usually be treated with rest, hydration, analgesics (eg. ibuprofen), and alcohol avoidance. If you are already experiencing these symptoms do not go to higher altitudes. There is a medication that can help prevent this illness. Individuals who have already experienced an episode of mountain sickness are at risk for future trips and should seek medical advice.

Severe forms are characterized by severe shortness of breath, cough, severe headache, confusion, or hallucinations. This may progress to coma and death. This is a medical emergency. Immediate descent to lower altitude, administration of oxygen, and medical attention are required.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:05 am 
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Quote:
You can't attribute only Morales' training for his slow start. There are a lot of other possible reasons why he started slow. Maybe he LIKES to start slow, checking the opponents movements, testing this move here and there, getting in the grove, so to speak.

I agree.
J.E. I respect your theries bro, but some fighters are just slow starters. Maybe it's the jitters. In the MAB-EM III fight, EM was tentative in the first 5 rounds while MAB KNEW what he had to do. He to press forward as EM hates fighting backwards.
If I were Manny and Roach I couldn't care less how or where EM trained. I'd watch his videos and find holes in his game.
I think if Manny keeps moving his head, darting in and out, EM gets beat easily. EM's punches are slow but they are plentiful when they come.
I'd tell Manny to keep circling around EM's left side all night and keep banging at his body.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:05 am 
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Thats why i can say all over again that MP can KO EM as early as 3rd to 4th round. Let just all seat back and relax Bro.


:celebrate:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:13 am 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
Quote:
You can't attribute only Morales' training for his slow start. There are a lot of other possible reasons why he started slow. Maybe he LIKES to start slow, checking the opponents movements, testing this move here and there, getting in the grove, so to speak.

I agree.
J.E. I respect your theries bro, but some fighters are just slow starters. Maybe it's the jitters. In the MAB-EM III fight, EM was tentative in the first 5 rounds while MAB KNEW what he had to do. He to press forward as EM hates fighting backwards.
If I were Manny and Roach I couldn't care less how or where EM trained. I'd watch his videos and find holes in his game.
I think if Manny keeps moving his head, darting in and out, EM gets beat easily. EM's punches are slow but they are plentiful when they come.
I'd tell Manny to keep circling around EM's left side all night and keep banging at his body.


You have a point, too! All I'm trying to do is point out EM's tendencies due to his training. Maybe his tendencies are not due to what I observed, but it makes sense.

Certainly though, working EM's body is a GREAT idea!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:22 am 
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I'd bang at that dehydrated body all night.
EM is OBVIOUSLY trying to make weight in this fight.
Did he stay at 130 one fight too long? We'll find out.
In the MAB fight, his right eye swelled-up fast
Big sign of dehydration.
Why did he start slow? Maybe he was pacing himself for the late rounds and he was just wanted to keep the early rounds close and steal one or two ( the Bob Arum assisted points ).
One thing up there in the mountains though, you're not gonna sweat much. I know in Lake Tahoe or Denver, you don't sweat much as the air is thin and almost always cool and dry.
Why is EM running slower? I think he's maintaining speed to keep it an aerobic exercise to lose some fat.
People talk about Manny's power all the time. But, in this fight, I'd exploit EM's very limited mobility if I were Roach. Roach actually has already said they will. Manny was a fast flyweight. EM's never seen anyone as fast Manny. Speed is the worst nightmare for sluggers.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:23 am 
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yanex125 wrote:
nice one bro....


thats right bro,..JMM survived, breathing a thin air after his nose was broken on the very 1st round. high altitude training helps him go through the full route. they're like a diesel. for sure, if JMM didnt trained in high altitude, his 2 belts are gone by that night. thats why mexicans do believes in high altitude training & aware being a slow starter. they used to go on end game. and thats what EM's telling everybody, he will emerge victorious after the last round.
MP should get him on or before 4 rounds, why wait the diesel to warm up, right??
Botyok


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