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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 12:54 pm 
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:shock:
















:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 1:42 pm 
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Duncan wrote:
miron_lang wrote:
dyey_em-si wrote:

Feeling ko nagpapasakay lang to si Jabz e :lol:

I think mahirap talaga yang GOAT debate e...it's unfair nga naman sa future players


in all honesty. wala naman talagang goat.. dahil imposible hehe both MJ and Kareem ganyan ang sinasabi...pareho silang me video nyan... at yung mga bagong player nangopya lang ng moves from old players so.. naisip din ng mga players yan except Lebron lol.

the term goat is just a marketing tool. kung sa yo super goat halimbawa si Kurt Rambis aba eh wala kami magagawa dyan...you can profess it all you like... but it does not make it true. being popular is not equal to being great .. kung sa popularity MJ talaga. pero kung nag iisip. eh ok na yung no goat na lang. emosyoal na din kasi mga tao.

right now both the media and the fans are truly brain washed.. just look at this..

Jordan being awarded as college goat???

https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/04/03/ka ... -all-time/

LOL this is so crazy even to my standard..

alam na..


Like we said, GOAT is just a matter of semantics or sabi nga ni Mod a marketing tool.
But in reality its The Greatest Who Ever Played covering the past and present players.


Kahit nga yang TGWEP (naks) e mahirap pa rin matumbok.
Kasi napakaraming factors na dapat consider.
Rules of the game in a certain era, quality of teams one played with and against, number of games played, etc.

Papogian na lang siguro, para mas madali.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 1:59 pm 
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Mang Jabz,

Eto mga sagot ko sa allegations mo:

1. Number of rings won't prove that you are the GOAT or else Russel will be crowned immediately with Horry as close second...

ANSWER: We’re talking about the rings of the ATGs and truly legends of the games. You can’t include role players. Please bring sanity to your mind. Is Horry even a Hall of Famer? Don’t bring absurd argument. So, among the most noteworthy were Russell’s 11, and the 6 rings of Jordan, Jabbar and Cousy. Sobrang layo pa ni Lebron mo so dahil sa hugger ka, hindi mo papansinin to at paulet ulet mong sasabihin eh si Horry 7 titles dapat mas GOAT yun. Pa engot engot na lang tayo.

2. Head-to head match-up will not determine who is better...

ANSWER: We are talking about greatness, not really the best player. Wilt can always outduel Bill pound-for-pound or Hakeem outsmarting Robinson. Metrics in determining GOAT should be: rings, stats, awards, consistency, longevity, clutchness, will to win, making others better. Head-to-head might be cute and bragging rights between 2 players but does not encompass and tell the whole story of your career.

3. Coaches won't make a player GOAT..as coaches do not win games.

ANSWER: This is an old mantra that I still believe in basketball: players win games, coaches lose them. Of course, coaches make plays but who will deliver that play to determine the final result? Players. So many legends played under an ATG coach from Russell-Red, and Magic-Riley to Duncan-Pop. They complement each other, win games together. But to boast that Lebron never played for an ATG coach just to undermine MJ’s legacy is bereft of valid argumentation. Spo who won 2 rings with Lebron might be ATG coach someday (who knows) just like when Phil started winning with MJ.

4. Teammates are being discounted as bums just to trumpet the achievement of alpha dogs and designated scorers.

ANSWER: Teammates are not being discounted. Kaya nga nanalo ng konting rings si Lebron di ba, by assembling super squads in an already weak East. Si Wade, Bosh, Irving, Allen na nga lang ang magaling sa East nagkuntsaba pa.

5. Points total won't be the basis of being GOAT as Jabbar would automatically be the greatest with Malone as 2nd and Lebron 3rd...

ANSWER: Ano na naman nangyari sa yo? Di ba #2 nga si GOAT mo at #3 si Jabbar? They wouldn’t be that high if ESPN didn’t consider points total. But for me, much, much better yung PPG coz it shows your contribution every game. MJ averaged all-time best 30.1 ppg in .50FG% (superb shooting for a guard) in the regular season and even upped his score sheet in the playoffs at 33.4 ppg. Have you heard the PER? O eto na yung metrics or formula to measure all your stats to determine your overall efficiency. So sino pa rin ang all-time best dun? Si MJ pa rin – better than Lebron (whose PER would shrink as he age), Jabbar, Wilt, Magic, et. al. Pero syempre sasabihin mo, wala yan, it’s made to accommodate MJ.

6. Number of MVPs does not automatically make you the GOAT...

ANSWER: Of course it’s one of the strongest basis but not automatic. Let’s look at the nos.: Jabbar won most at 6, he’s #3 all-time, Russell and Jordan 5 each and they were #4 and #1 in the GOAT list. Kung magrereklamo ka dahil hindi #1 si Jabbar eh lalong magrereklamo ako dahil kung ganon eh #4 or #5 lang dapat si Lebron who won 4 MVPs similar to Wilt.

7. Losses and failures throughout your career will be used against you... :lol:

ANSWER: Of course, there’s no room for 2nd place. You only remember the greatest moments. Ang patawa naman kung magdidiwang tayo sa 5 Finals losses ni GOAT nyo? Anong klaseng formula naman yan sa GOAT. As we said, if Lebron wins another ring, he’s top 5, 2 more and he can rival MJ’s spot, another ring and he can be the GOAT. Those 5 Finals losses will be forgotten, erased in the memory of fans. Pero dagdagan muna ring nya.

8. No newcomers will ever become a GOAT... :lol:

ANSWER: Paulet ulet na lang to. GOAT is just a matter of semantics. Wala kang career sa media outfit, ads or marketing if you cannot elicit interest. Mas masarap lang syang pakinggan but in reality its Greatest Who Ever Played and that covers past and present players only.

9. Stats such as rebounds and assists shouldn't be used in the discussion...

ANSWER: Rebounding kings Jabbar, Wilt and Russell were top 5, and assist king Magic in the top 10, what are you talking about? It so happened that the #1 was a scoring champ 10x and steals champ 3x. So how do you justify Lebron as #2 then? He was nowhere a rebounding king, an assist king, steal nor blocks king? Oh he got 1x scoring crown – and that’s it – he is #2?

10. What matters only is that you must be 6-0, 6x Finals MVP, a global icon and should win scoring titles 10x... :lol:

ANSWER: Okay, then please show your GOAT Lebron’s career highlights and awards. I dare you to match this pound-for-pound for MJ. Wala ng paligoy-ligoy pa:
• 6× NBA champion (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
• 6× NBA Finals MVP (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
• 5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)
• 14× NBA All-Star (1985–1993, 1996–1998, 2002, 2003)
• 3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)
• 10× All-NBA First Team (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
• All-NBA Second Team (1985)
• NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
• 9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1988–1993, 1996–1998)
• NBA Rookie of the Year (1985)
• NBA All-Rookie Team (1985)
• 10× NBA scoring champion (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
• 3× NBA steals leader (1988, 1990, 1993)
• 2× NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1987, 1988)


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:59 pm 
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Galit na talaga si mang Duncs... :(

Ke Jabbar, taob si Jordan... :lol:
Kay Lebron lumalaban pa...

Post natin dito achievements ni Lebron...


3× NBA champion: 2012, 2013, 2016
3× NBA Finals Most Valuable Player: 2012, 2013, 2016
4× NBA Most Valuable Player: 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013
16× NBA All-Star: 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2006, 2008, 2018
16× All-NBA selection:
12× First team: 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018
2× Second team: 2005, 2007
1x Third team: 2019
6× NBA All-Defensive selection:
5× First team: 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013
1× Second team: 2008
NBA Rookie of the Year: 2004
NBA All-Rookie First Team: 2004
NBA Scoring Champion: 2008
J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award: 2017

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A GIFT…THAT’S WHY IT IS CALLED THE PRESENT “.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 3:57 pm 
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hater siguro to.. :lol:
Why Michael Jordan Is Not the Greatest Player in NBA History
Josh B
May 29, 2009

BleacherReport wrote:
Call it blasphemy if you wish, but I don't think that Michael Jordan is the greatest player in NBA history. Let me just clear up some things.

1. I'm not a Jordan hater.

2. I'm completely aware of Jordan's contributions.

3. I'm also aware of the achievements of other legends and a closer look shows that Jordan is not undoubtedly the greatest of all time.

In fact, there are five players that I think are in the argument for GOAT. There's only one player I'd put over him though.

This player doesn't have Wilt's numbers, Russell's rings, or Magic's popularity, but when it comes down to it, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the greatest player in NBA history.

When you compare Kareem and Jordan at face value, it's easy to think that Jordan is better. While I disagree, Jordan couldn't be a closer second. For a while, I thought that Jordan was the greatest, but here's why Kareem is the GOAT.

The Numbers

When you're only looking at basic stats, Kareem probably isn't in the top five. But one reason why people have forgotten Kareem's greatness is his longevity.

Mainly because of his debt (and I'm sure a love of the game had to do with it as well), Kareem played until he was 41, when he was way passed his days of being an elite player.

Kareem played 1560 games. Jordan played 1072 games. When you look at Kareem's numbers through that same number of games (okay, so through 1090 games, but I had to round it off at the end of a season), the numbers are comparable.

Points per game

Kareem sits at 24.6 points per game, 11th all-time. Through 1090 games, Kareem averages 27.3 points per game, fifth all-time behind Jordan, Chamberlain, LeBron James, and Elgin Baylor.

Chamberlain (who played 1045 games) averages 2.8 more points per game than Kareem, but Kareem played in slower offenses.

Rebounds per game

Currently 24th at 11.1. In 1090 games, he's 10th at 13.2. He's third behind only Wes Unseld and Dave Cowens in terms of post-60's players.

Assists per game

4.6 per game in 1090. This is first among all centers. Bill Walton, considered by most to be the greatest passing big man ever, had one season where he averaged more.

Defense

Of course, it's not all about numbers when it comes to greatness. But there is evidence that Kareem is at least in the top five when it comes to defense.

Back to 1090 games defense, Kareem averaged 3.7 blocks per game, first all-time. Of course, there's most likely still players above him. Bill Russell most likely holds the record, but blocks weren't a stat when he played.

Kareem also averaged more fouls than blocks in that time. Mark Eaton, Hakeem Olajuwon, Alonzo Mourning, Ben Wallace, Marcus Camby, and Dwight Howard this year, all Defensive Player of the Year winners, can't claim the same numbers.

In fact, these are the kind of defensive numbers Dikembe Mutombo averaged when he won three DPOY's in four years.

Kareem led the NBA in blocks four times. In three of those years, he averaged more blocks than fouls, with a ratio of 1.27, far more than anyone else at the time. The DPOY wasn't around at the time, but Kareem should have won it.

In the first year, Kareem led the NBA in rebounds and blocks. In the second year, he led the NBA in rebounds per game and blocks per game. In the third year, Kareem was deservedly voted to the all-defensive first team over the defensively overrated, foul-prone Dave Cowens.

If he had good relationships with the media and had DPOY been around at the time, Kareem probably would have won it those three times.

Winning Ability

In the 69-70 season, Knicks center Willis Reed had one of the most accomplished seasons any player has ever had. He was all-NBA, all-defensive, an NBA champion, finals MVP, and the NBA's MVP.

Even in his rookie year, Kareem deserved that MVP. The Bucks, coming off a 27 win season, acquired Kareem and Bob Dandridge, and the two led the Bucks to 56 wins, only four games behind the Knicks where Reed was surrounded by great players like Walt Frazier, Dave DeBusschere, Bill Bradley, and Cazzie Russell.

Kareem deservedly won MVP in his second year with one of the greatest seasons anyone has ever had. He led the NBA in scoring, averaged 16 rebounds per game, and won finals MVP. The Bucks won 66 games, most in the NBA.

In his remaining four seasons with the Bucks, they won less than 59 games once. The Bucks were 34-31 with Kareem and 4-13 without him.

Kareem would have been able to take just about any group of players and make them into an elite team. Flynn Robinson became an elite point guard worthy of a trade for Oscar Robertson, but scored seven less per game in Cincinnati.

He opened up the lanes for John McGlocklin better than anyone could have. Oscar Robertson rejuvenated his career with the Bucks.

In his Laker days, Kareem was an NBA finalist eight times and he's a six-time NBA champion.

As possibly the greatest passing big man and helping defender ever, Kareem inspired his team win more than anyone, despite what his relationships with the media would lead one to think.

I know what you're thinking; Jordan has six championships. Yes he does. And it also wouldn't be fair for me to say that Kareem won six as well after highlighting the years where he only won three. However, during most of those years, Kareem didn't have an elite sidekick like Jordan.

With the Bucks, Robertson was an elite talent for only his first two years. With Robertson, the Bucks won the NBA championship and lost the finals to the Lakers, who won 69 games. Magic Johnson and Kareem were united for four of the seasons I mentioned earlier and made the finals twice and lost the finals another time.

Jordan didn't win a championship in his first six years because of a poor supporting cast. The Bulls finished under .500 in his first three years and didn't contend until Scottie Pippen became an elite talent in Jordan's sixth season.

Pippen is Underrated

Jordan is 5-15 without him in the postseason. To say that Pippen doesn't compare to Jordan is absurd. In the Bulls games I've watched, Pippen is often the one rotating quickly on defense, helping out everyone. Not to say Jordan wasn't a great defender, Pippen was just better in that aspect.

In the two years played mainly without Jordan, the Bulls were still a very good team under Pippen's leadership. In 1994, the Bulls won 55 games and lost to the NBA finalist Knicks in seven games in the second round. The Bulls won 47 games the second year, losing to the Magic, also NBA finalists, in six games in the second round.

Kareem Also Played in a Tougher NBA

The 70's are often a forgotten era in NBA history for two reasons; the lack of star power and because the NBA doesn't like talking about the league's drug problems.

But the 70's were an era with half as many teams as the 90's and greater talent concentration. In that decade, the fifth best team in the league would only win around 45 games. It would sometimes be a team like the Knicks or the Warriors with Rick Barry and Nate Thurmond. The 80's were the toughest era in NBA history.

Who's better? The 80's Lakers, the 80's Celtics, the 90's Bulls? Perhaps a 76er's team led by Moses Malone and Julius Erving?

If Jordan's Bulls played in the 80's, they wouldn't have won six championships. It's possible that Jordan was a greater winner than Kareem and a player's winning ability is all that really matters when it comes down to it.

But a closer look at history shows that the players are neck-and-neck. Perhaps if Kareem had a Pippen-like talent in the first half of his career, the Bucks would be up there with the Bulls.

Conclusion

As I said before, Jordan was an amazing player. He couldn't be any closer to the greatest ever. He's not overrated. Others are just underrated.

Kareem, along with his great individual accomplishments, was a winner. He took the Bucks, a 27 win team, and made them into NBA champions in two years.

With a supporting cast lacking superstars, Kareem led the Bucks to 60 win seasons. In his second season with the Lakers, without Johnson and after losing Gail Goodrich, Kareem led the Lakers to 53 wins. With Magic, the Lakers dominated the most difficult era in NBA history.

Kareem, a six-time MVP, a six-time NBA champion, the all-time leader in points, a 19-time all-star, and possibly the greatest passing big man and one of the greatest interior defenders of all-time, is the greatest player in NBA history.

Jordan has six rings and he's the all-time leading scorer, but a closer look shows that he's not the undeniable GOAT.




:bounce1:

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 4:31 pm 
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These 2 Lebron huggers have surrendered. Napunta na ke Jabbar vs MJ usapan :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 4:44 pm 
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JABEZJ wrote:
Galit na talaga si mang Duncs... :(

Ke Jabbar, taob si Jordan... :lol:
Kay Lebron lumalaban pa...

Post natin dito achievements ni Lebron...


3× NBA champion: 2012, 2013, 2016
3× NBA Finals Most Valuable Player: 2012, 2013, 2016
4× NBA Most Valuable Player: 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013
16× NBA All-Star: 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2006, 2008, 2018
16× All-NBA selection:
12× First team: 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018
2× Second team: 2005, 2007
1x Third team: 2019
6× NBA All-Defensive selection:
5× First team: 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013
1× Second team: 2008
NBA Rookie of the Year: 2004
NBA All-Rookie First Team: 2004
NBA Scoring Champion: 2008
J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award: 2017


O eto lamang ni MJ:
Sa rings, Lebron only achieved half of MJ's accomplishments.
Sa Finals MVP, ganun kalahati lang nakayanang gawin
Sa NBA MVP, lamang si MJ ng isa.
May isa DPOY si MJ, yung isa dyan wala.
Lamang ng 3 sa all-Defensive First Team.
Scoring title dyos mio - 10x vs. 1 ni Lebron por dios pos santo
Steals champ nangkupo 3 agad ke MJ, Lebron nada
2x slam dunk pa si MJ, ang contest kung san takot na takot sumali si Lebron grabe

Lamang lang ni Lebron sa All-Star susme eh 17 years of play vs. 14 lang.
Ganun din sa All-NBA First Team, lamang ng 2 si Lebron da highschooler mas marami nga namang chance
Hwag mo ng idagdag Walter Kennedy na walang kinalaman sa game ano yan pampalubag loob

END OF DEBATE!

Ewan ko ba kung bakit pinatulan ko pa dalawang yan! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:25 pm 
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hindi ko alam Lebron hugger pala talaga ako hihihih :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 5:10 pm 
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Duncan wrote:
JABEZJ wrote:
Galit na talaga si mang Duncs... :(

Ke Jabbar, taob si Jordan... :lol:
Kay Lebron lumalaban pa...

Post natin dito achievements ni Lebron...


3× NBA champion: 2012, 2013, 2016
3× NBA Finals Most Valuable Player: 2012, 2013, 2016
4× NBA Most Valuable Player: 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013
16× NBA All-Star: 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2006, 2008, 2018
16× All-NBA selection:
12× First team: 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018
2× Second team: 2005, 2007
1x Third team: 2019
6× NBA All-Defensive selection:
5× First team: 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013
1× Second team: 2008
NBA Rookie of the Year: 2004
NBA All-Rookie First Team: 2004
NBA Scoring Champion: 2008
J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award: 2017


O eto lamang ni MJ:
Sa rings, Lebron only achieved half of MJ's accomplishments.
Sa Finals MVP, ganun kalahati lang nakayanang gawin
Sa NBA MVP, lamang si MJ ng isa.
May isa DPOY si MJ, yung isa dyan wala.
Lamang ng 3 sa all-Defensive First Team.
Scoring title dyos mio - 10x vs. 1 ni Lebron por dios pos santo
Steals champ nangkupo 3 agad ke MJ, Lebron nada
2x slam dunk pa si MJ, ang contest kung san takot na takot sumali si Lebron grabe

Lamang lang ni Lebron sa All-Star susme eh 17 years of play vs. 14 lang.
Ganun din sa All-NBA First Team, lamang ng 2 si Lebron da highschooler mas marami nga namang chance
Hwag mo ng idagdag Walter Kennedy na walang kinalaman sa game ano yan pampalubag loob

END OF DEBATE!

Ewan ko ba kung bakit pinatulan ko pa dalawang yan! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Bigti na yung tagahimud ng pwet ni LeChoke!!


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 7:38 pm 
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Thank you Lebron for showing to the world how it is to be the real GOAT...

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A GIFT…THAT’S WHY IT IS CALLED THE PRESENT “.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 2:27 pm 
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RIP Jerry Sloan

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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 7:45 pm 
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:shock:
JABEZJ wrote:
Thank you Lebron for showing to the world how it is to be the real GOAT...




:lol:

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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 9:43 pm 
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Wait, kelan naging underdog si Jordan / Chicago Bulls sa Finals?

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A GIFT…THAT’S WHY IT IS CALLED THE PRESENT “.


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 11:00 am 
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miron_lang wrote:


Sir Mod Miron,

This comparison was made to appear that Jabbar was head-&-shoulders above Jordan which did not capture the whole story of their respective careers. We do not claim to have followed the career of Jabbar in the 70s. Our fanaticism in the NBA started in the late 80s. So pardon us for the lack of deep appreciation for the “Cap”. But we’re making this as objective as possible by setting the records straight.

Installation of GOAT or TBE has been circulating around since modern sports have been invented. We were made to believe that Russell was the Greatest when he bannered a record 11 rings in the 60s. Then, Jabbar started his patented skyhook in the 70s accumulating record-breaking stats till the late 80s with 6 rings. Then came a non-center who hangs in the air like no other en route to a record 6 Finals MVPs. The next generations tried to be like Mike but failed to reach His Airness.

The GOAT or TBE debate is an ever contentious topic. And we see the argument of some people who still held Jabbar as the GOAT. The MJ-Kareem discussion probably is the most logical debate if any there has been. We’ll make this as comprehensive as possible. We will not tackle “coulda-woulda-shoulda” scenarios as not to befuddle actual facts and figures. We will not take even popularity as one of the factors here as it’s childish to associate fame and being a global icon to greatness.

ON COLLEGIATE PLAYS

In all our arguments, we didn’t include the college games since it would be unfair to highschoolers who jumped to NBA like Lebron, Kobe and Garnett who had no collegiate records to speak of. We would give the nod to Jabbar as the best player the NCAA has ever produced.

ADVANTAGE: Jabbar by a knockout.

ON INTERNATIONAL PLAYS

Jabbar didn’t participate in any FIBA or Olympic Games however he may have personal reasons despite being a college standout. Whereas MJ has led Team USA to Olympic Gold twice (once as an amateur and another as a pro) as well as the FIBA Americas and Pan Americas – both gold standard also.

ADVANTAGE: Jordan by a knockout.

ON PROFESSIONAL PLAYS

NO. OF CHAMPIONSHIP RINGS

The no. of rings should be the foremost consideration in determining GOAT or TBE. That’s why star players coalesce together to assemble super teams, others are willing to take huge salary cuts to accommodate other strong players, and some demands trade to join other teams to be competitive – all in the name of the Larry O’Brien championship trophy.

In this criterion, both Jabbar and MJ had 6 rings. It must be noted that in the 1st-tier of ATGs, only Russell had more with 11. But that’s another subject of debate.

Kareem earned his 1st title in 1971 with ATG Robertson in the tailend of his career sweeping the Bullets with HOFers in their prime - Monroe, Unseld, Gus Johnson. His next 5 titles came during Showtime era in the 80s. In 1980, the Lakers with top rookie ATG Magic, and HOFers Haywood (past his prime) and Wilkes (middle of prime) beat the 76ers with ATG Erving and HOFers Cheeks and Bobby Jones. LA with reinforcement from another ATG McAdoo beat again Philly in 1982. The 4th title came in 1985 defeating the Celts of ATGs Bird and McHale with HOFers Parish & Dennis Johnson. This was the strongest LA in recent memory with a very prime Magic and Worthy with McAdoo and Wilkes. The 5th title was in 1987, again beating the Celts. The 6th and last was in 1988 vs. Detroit with ATG Thomas and fellow HOFers Dumars, Dantley and Rodman in their very prime.

Jordan with ATG Pippen in his prime got his 1st ring in 1991 closing the Showtime era with ATGs Magic and Worthy in the tailend of their career but with a prime HOFer Divac. The Bulls repeated in 1992 beating Portland of ATG Drexler in his very prime. Chicago had their 3-peat in 1993 edging out Phoenix led by ATG Barkley in his very prime. The Bulls with a dreaded defensive trio of MJ-Pip-Rodman reclaimed the title in 1996 beating the Sonics of HOFer Payton. The Bulls repeated again in 1997 with backup from HOFer Parish past his prime beating the Jazz’s ATG duo of Malone and Stockton still in their very prime. A 2nd 3-peat came in 1998 still vs. Jazz’s duo of Malone-Stockton.

Jabbar’s 5 of 6 titles came with a very prime Magic (#5 GOAT by ESPN) and Worthy (#51). His other title was with Robertson (#11) on the tailend of his career. All 6 titles of MJ was with Pippen (#21) in his very prime, including the 3 titles with Rodman (#62). Considering MJ was the alpha dog in all of those titles, and with Jabbar relinquishing leadership role to Magic with Big Game James, we consider MJ’s 6 rings as closely better than Jabbar’s.

ADVANTAGE: Jordan by split decision

AWARDS

We take the major awards only officially given and recognized by the NBA:

MJ won 6 Finals MVP to Jabbar’s 2x
MJ was 5x NBA MVP to Jabbar’s 6x
Both MJ and Jabbar were tied being 10x All-NBA First Team
MJ was 9x All-Defensive First Team to Jabbar’s 5x
Both have been Rookie of the Year
MJ was 14x NBA All-Star to Jabbar’s 19x
MJ was 3x All-Star MVP to Jabbar’s 0
MJ was also 2x Slam Dunk winner

The glaring difference was MJ’s 6-2 over Jabbar in Finals MVP. We’d take the Finals MVP over the regular MVP anytime because the former automatically comes with a ring.

ADVANTAGE: Jordan by unanimous decision

STATISTICS

We have 2-tiered stats here: cumulative and per game.

Jabbar had more career totals in points, rebounds, assists and blocks than MJ who just had more steals – in the regular season. In historical perspective, Kareem’s points total put him at #1 all time while MJ at #5; in rebounding – Kareem at #3, MJ out of the top 10; in blocks – Kareem at #3, MJ out of the top 10; in assists – both out of the top 10; in steals – MJ at #3, Kareem out of the top 10.

In the playoffs, Jordan had more career points, assists and steals more than Jabbar who had more rebounds and blocks. In historical perspective, MJ’s points total put him at #2 all time, Kareem at #3; in assists – MJ at #10, Kareem out of the top 10; in steals – MJ at #3, Kareem out the top 10; in rebounding – Kareem at #5, MJ out of the top 10; in blocks – Kareem at #2, MJ out of the top 10.

Per game in the reg. season, MJ led with an all-time best scoring ave. (30.1) to Jabbar’s 24.6. MJ also led in assists and steals with Jabbar claiming the rebounds and blocks. In historical perspective, MJ’s scoring average put him at #1 all time, Kareem out of the top 10; in rebounding and assists – both Kareem and MJ were nowhere in the top 10; in blocks – Jabbar at #8, MJ out of the top 10; and in steals – MJ at #3, Jabbar out of the top 10.

In the playoffs, MJ also led an all-time best scoring ave. (33.4) to Jabbar’s 24.3. MJ also led in assists and steals with Jabbar claiming the rebounds and blocks. In historical perspective, MJ’s scoring average put him at #1 all time, Jabbar out of the top 10; in rebounding and assists – both Kareem and MJ were out of the top 10; in blocks – Kareem at #8, MJ out of the top 10; in steals – MJ at #7, Kareem out of the top 10.

Jordan was also 10x scoring champ and 3x steals leader whereas Jabbar was 2x scoring champ, 1x rebounding champ and 4x blocks leader.

If we need to have an overall view of their efficiency, we can include PER (Player Efficiency Rating) that rates a player’s overall stats performance. The Hollinger all-in-1 rating is widely being used by ESPN to boil down all players’ contributions into One Number. Here, MJ was better at an all time best 27.9 to Jabbar’s 24.6.


ADVANTAGE: Jordan by majority decision

WINNABILITY

Jabbar as a prized rookie (1st pick overall) piloted the Bucks to a 56-26 record in 1970, an exact reversal of fortune for the franchise the year before. The 29 game improvement was the best in NBA history that would stand for 10 years. Milwaukee remained a powerhouse in early 70s being seeded 1st thrice in the West. But Jabbar missed the playoffs the last time he suited for Milwaukee in 1975. Then, he demanded trade to go to LA where he missed again the playoffs for the 2nd time in his career. In 1977, the Lakers were swept by Walton’s Blazers in West Finals, the 1st time Jabbar was ever swept. In 1980, a rookie by the name of Magic was acquired by the Lakers. The team hovered around 54 wins to as high as 65 and was seeded 1st in the West for 9 years during the Showtime era.

Jordan as a fan-favorite rookie (3rd pick overall) led the Bulls to a modest 38 wins. MJ’s 2nd season was cut short by a foot injury when he missed 64 games. Chicago was clinging on 7th and 8th spots in the East during its 1st 3 years before improving slowly. In the post-season, Jordan’s Bulls were swept twice by Bird’s Celts in the 1st Round before being denied thrice by Thomas’ Piston in the next 3 playoffs. In 1991, Chicago finally ended Detroit’s reign sweeping them in the East Finals. The Bulls had been winning reg. season games during its 1st repeat by 62 games average before Jordan briefly retired for baseball. He returned late in 1995 to play 17 games only before winning another historic 3-peat punctuated by Chicago’s record 72 games in the 1996 season. The Bulls almost had another 70 wins the next year but intriguingly lost its final 2 games to end up 69-13. MJ returned anew after his 2nd retirement at age 38, this time as a Wizard but missed the playoffs during his 2 year time at Washington.

ADVANTAGE: Draw

LEVEL OF COMPETITION

This is tougher than it looks like. We have to rely on ESPN’s ranking of the 74 top players in the last 74 years.

During early part of MJ’s career, he had to wage wars with the ff. listed here with their ESPY ranking. The Lakers and Celts assembled 2 of the greatest teams ever followed by the Pistons (Bad Boys) and Philly. A young MJ already had to challenge 3 ultimate ATGs in the top 10 - in a no-hand check, no-harm/no-foul, all naughty and no nice era of basketball. MJ’s early competition marked the toughest era for any team not named Lakers, Celts, Sixers nor Pistons:

3rd - Jabbar – still in prime
5th - Magic – very prime
7th - Bird – very prime
12th – Hakeem – very prime
15th – Erving – past prime
18th – M. Malone – middle of prime
31st – Thomas – very prime
36th – McHale – very prime
48th – Walton – past prime
51st – Worthy – very prime
62nd – Rodman – very prime

When MJ finally closed the curtain on the Showtime era, he still needed to beat the ff. consistently in order to get his multiple rings. And to think that a shooting guard had to be roughened again up by behemoths who still ruled the game into the 90s. Explosive on the offensive end of the floor, Jordan was equally frightening on the defensive end.

10th – Shaq – very prime
17th – K. Malone – very prime
23rd - Barkley – very prime
24th – Robinson – very prime
28th – Stockton – very prime
37th – Ewing – very prime
46th – Wilkins – very prime
49th – Miller – very prime
53rd – Payton – very prime
56th – Allen – very prime
57th – Drexler – very prime
63rd – Mourning – very prime
69th – King – middle of prime
73rd – Mutombo – very prime

When MJ returned at an advanced age of 38, there was a new order in basketball and he had to face new stars at their very best:

8th - Duncan – very prime
9th - Kobe – very prime
20th – Garnett – very prime
29th – Iverson – very prime
30th – Nash – very prime
35th – Kidd – very prime
56th – Allen – very prime

In all, MJ practically had to battle it out against almost half (32) of all the NBA’s 74 best players.

With regards to Kareem, he entered the league in the 70s when Russell had just retired and Wilt still in prime but on the downhill. The 70s was a decade of parity in the NBA seeing 8 different champions with no back-to-back winners. Teams were evenly matched then that it was very difficult to forecast champions. It was most enigmatic that you can’t tell whether Jabbar who claimed 6 NBA MVPs in 10 years should have won more than once. The following was Kareem’s competition (and their ESPY ranking) when he was the king of basketball:

#6 - Wilt – still in prime
#15 - Erving – very prime
#16 - West – very prime
#22 - Baylor – very prime
#39 - Frazier – very prime
#33 - Havlicek – very prime
#43 - Barry – very prime
#44 - Hayes – very prime
#47 - Gervin – very prime
#48 - Walton – very prime
#50 - Unseld – very prime
#59 - McAdoo – very prime
#60 - Reed – very prime
#64 - Monroe – very prime
#66 - Cowens – very prime
#67 - English – very prime
#68 - Maravich – very prime
#71 - Lanier – very prime
#74 - Gilmore – very prime

There was changing of the guards in the 80s and the unequal distribution of talents had been poignant to small market teams. Most of the supremely talented star players were in the glamorous teams – LA, Boston and Philly. Kareem was part of the Lakeshow along with fellow ATGs Magic and Worthy with competition as follows:

1st – Jordan – very prime
7th - Bird – very prime
12th – Hakeem – very prime
18th – M. Malone – very prime
31st – Thomas – very prime
36th – McHale – very prime
37th – Ewing – very prime
48th – Walton – past prime
62nd – Rodman – very prime

In summary, MJ faced against 6 of the top 10 ATGs in their prime and another 4 in the top 20. He had a teammate (Pippen) ranked #21 for 11 years and another (Rodman) listed at #62 for only 3 years. Whereas Jabbar faced-off only 2 of the top 10 ATGs in their prime and another 4 in the top 20. He had teammates ranked #11 (Robertson but on the downhill) for 4 years, ranked #5 (Magic) for 10 years, ranked #51 (Worthy) for 7 years; ranked #59 (McAdoo) for 4 years and a notable HOFer (Wilkes) for 8 years. In short, Jordan had little help and tougher competition than Jabbar.

ADVANTAGE: Jordan by unanimous decision

CLUTCHNESS AND WILL TO WIN

How do we measure up thee? By definition, being clutch is being able to deliver when the game is on the line – when there is too much pressure in it – when you reach the climax and there’s nothing left but to will your team to win. For this purpose, we did not include all those defensive stops or assists to teammates to win the games.

Both MJ and Jabbar were ultra-competitors and were on the 1st killer-instinct gene lines. However, Kareem’s low-post, hook shots down the lane had been overshadowed by Magic’s late heroics. Previously, there was this memorable sky hook in Beantown under 5 secs. left of Game 6 of 1974 Finals but the Bucks would go on to lose the series. Whereas, MJ owned 2 of the 7 buzzer beaters that clinched a playoff series in NBA history that included the “Shot” in 1989 and the “Push-off” in 1998.

To this day, if you ask hoops fans who would you want to take the game-winning shot – most would still prefer MJ to take it against the martians with the future of human civilization on the line. Simply, this is how you leave an indelible imprint on the game.

ADVANTAGE: Jordan by unanimous decision

LONGEVITY & CONSISTENCY

We give it to Jabbar for having sustained excellence for an amazing 20 seasons. He had scored 20+ PPG for 17 straight seasons since his rookie year (at age 22) for an outstanding shooting accuracy of 56%FG. He put up double-double for 12 consecutive seasons, too.

On the other hand, MJ played for 14 full seasons. He had scored 20+ PPG in all 14 seasons starting with his rookie year (age age 21) with an incredible accuracy of 50%FG for a shooting guard. He still scored a game-high 51 pts. at an advanced age of 38 as a Wizard.

ADVANTAGE: Jabbar by knockout

LEADERSHIP & IMPACT

There has been no player as impactful and leadership been ruthless as exemplified by MJ. But they’ve been brought only by his genuine desire to win. Probable ATG coach Kerr who played with MJ for 3 years during the Bulls’ 2nd 3-peat had been outspoken of MJ’s leadership style. Kerr said MJ’s philosophy was to harden up teammates, trash talk everybody during practice – to prepare them for the biggest moments. The reasoning was – if you can’t handle the trash-talk now, you can’t handle the pressure of the NBA playoffs.

Another teammate, Armstrong who played with MJ during the Bulls’ 1st 3-peat said MJ’s leadership style worked for the team because he worked harder than everybody else. That’s why people around him got to follow him. He wasn’t going to ask anybody on the team to do anything that he himself wasn’t willing to do.

On the other hand, Jabbar was more reserved as the Lakers’ honorary ‘Captain’ with Magic becoming more as the real boss from the locker room onto the basketball court. The former Lew Alcindor was more passionate off the floor – fighting for civil rights while converting to Islam, and devoting to yoga and the martial arts. Previously playing for Milwaukee and grateful for its fans, he saw the need to fit his cultural ideas and demanded a trade to LA.

ADVANTAGE: Jordan by knockout

MAKING OTHERS BETTER

Now, this is rather intriguing as a factor in determining greatness. Still so many other intangibles to consider like being a role model to others (e.g. the first one to come in practice), professionalism (e.g. taking the blame for losses), mentoring and motivating (e.g. rallying the team in key moments of the game).

How do you supposedly enhance your teammates’ play to make him better as a player? How do you measure this particular bar from the time of Russell in the 60s, Jabbar in the 70s, Magic in the 80s, Jordan in the 90s, Duncan in the 2000s to Lebron in 2010s? How do score-first players fare vs. pass-first in contributing to a team’s success?

So what exactly is making others better? In a nutshell, it means trusting your teammates. When you empower your teammates, they gain confidence of their abilities, thus bringing out the best in them.
One of these examples still vivid in memory lane was the pass of MJ to a wide-open Kerr for the game-winning, series-clinching shot of the 1997 NBA Finals. Another where Jordan was part of the play was Paxsons’ wide-open trey that clinched the Bulls’ 1st 3-peat.

ADVANTAGE: Jordan by unanimous decision


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 12:37 pm 
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JABEZJ wrote:
dyey_em-si wrote:
miron_lang wrote:
di ko alam maka Lebron ka pala Jabz hehe..


Feeling ko nagpapasakay lang to si Jabz e :lol:



Oisst...Lebron Hugger talaga ako for life...promise... :lol:
Pasensya na, bored lang wala na kasing delawan sa Politics forum... :lol:

So far these are some things that I realized:

1. Number of rings won't prove that you are the GOAT or else Russel will be crowned immediately with Horry as close second... :lol:
2. Head-to head match-up will not determine who is better...
3. Coaches won't make a player GOAT..as coaches do not win games.
4. Teammates are being discounted as bums just to trumpet the achievement of alpha dogs and designated scorers..
5. Points total won't be the basis of being GOAT as Jabbar would automatically be the greatest with Malone as 2nd and Lebron 3rd...
6. Number of MVPs does not automatically make you the GOAT...
7. Losses and failures throughout your career will be used against you... :lol:
8. No newcomers will ever become a GOAT... :lol:
9. Stats such as rebounds and assists shouldn't be used in the discussion...
10. What matters only is that you must be 6-0, 6x Finals MVP, a global icon and should win scoring titles 10x... :lol:


Sya let's continue to support Kahwi and Giannis now same as how we supported Durant and the Warriors before para mapigilan ang ring collection ni Lebron at baka maungusan pa si GOAT MJ... :lol:


Gusto ko sana maniwala haha :lol:

Back to topic

I think kahit si MJ alam nyan nonsense tong GOAT debate. Kasi nga sa factor na di nya nakalaro at di nya makakalaro lahat ng players. Sana ginawa na lang nila e best player of the decade.

For me kasi GOAT, e di dapat tigil na basketball....nasukat mo na yung lahat e.

MJ fan ako mga sirs, pero I don't engage in debates sino GOAT...di pa naman magbabago pananaw ko in the near future e

Wag kayo maniwala kay jabz....nang aano lang yan :lol:


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