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Are strenght and conditioning coaches in boxing overrated?
Poll ended at Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:05 pm
I agree most fighters and trainers already know how to get in fighting form. 27%  27%  [ 8 ]
No, they are not overrated and I believe in Kinesiology. 40%  40%  [ 12 ]
It depends who the coach is. 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Case to case basis. 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 30
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:53 pm 
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pinoygreatsfan wrote:
i agree w lildevalt...unless your jumping weight classes and wanted to it the right way...s&c are not that important..since disciplined boxers are always in shape in between fights...

We are talking here of supplements in addition to regular training. When fights are so far between, can you name an elite fighter of today who don't bulge up in between fights? Pacquiao, Mayweather, Martinez, Chavez Jr., Amir Khan, Morales, Marquez & Nonito Jr to name some, benefitted from S&C applied supplements either to reduce weight or gain strength. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:59 pm 
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andycastro wrote:
pinoygreatsfan wrote:
i agree w lildevalt...unless your jumping weight classes and wanted to it the right way...s&c are not that important..since disciplined boxers are always in shape in between fights...

We are talking here of supplements in addition to regular training. When fights are so far between, can you name an elite fighter of today who don't bulge up in between fights? Pacquiao, Mayweather, Martinez, Chavez Jr., Amir Khan, Morales, Marquez & Nonito Jr to name some, benefitted from S&C applied supplements either to reduce weight or gain strength. :D



Discipline is the best supplement. That's what modern great fighters like Hopkins and Mayweather live by when fights are far between. Hagler didn't fight that much in a year but it was amazing how he maintained his form in the vicinity of middleweight division in his entire career. They didn't rely on supplements. The irony of it all, in this age of supplements and conditioning coaches, we are producing less and less quality boxers, let alone future hall of famers and all time greats.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Kamatis wrote:
It's like asking, do cars need mechanics? Yes. And no, mechanics aren't overrated.


Bad analogy. You don't have to be a mechanic to fine tune your car. You take your car to the shop when there's something needs to be fixed.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:35 pm 
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ako_barok wrote:
Records are broken. Everything evolves. Science works.

Strength and conditioning coaches are not overrated. They are an integral
part of the team--if a boxer is dead serious to excel and come out on top.

An interesting example is the video that compares how each 100-meter
freestyle winner in an Olympic year would fare, if they were to compete at
the same time.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/01/sports/olympics/racing-against-history.html

The graph underneath the vid shows the same Olympic records of 100-meter
freestyle winners throughout its history. The horizontal axis represents the
length of the pool in meters, the vertical axis--the Olympic year, and each dot,
the winner of said year.

As better nutrition, superb conditioning, and scientific techniques gradually
inject themselves as time goes on, the champion swimmer achieves a better record.

So, back to boxing, given two boxers of equal skill where each subscribes to the
services of a strength and conditioning coach, the outcome is a flip of a coin.

Two boxers of equal skill where one has a s&c coach and one has none, I'd
put my money on the former.

Two boxers without s&c coaches, the skillful boxer wins.

Pacquiao, skipping s&c, against Marquez, deep into s&c--for me--is a flip of
a coin. May the most deserving boxer win.

EDIT:

The same pattern emerges for the Olympic long jump and 100-meter sprint.
Just scroll down the same page to click on the image link.

Very true. Applicable in almost all physical sports today. We hear Ariza employs a basketball S&C
coach in his program with Pacquiao & others. Nonito employs a track & field coach in training.
:)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Lildevalt wrote:
DISCIPLINE, to put it simply, is a lot more valuable than a supplement and conditioning coach. Armstrong, Joe Louis and Robinson had busy lives outside of the ring. Womanizing, playing golf, drinking, gambling, u name it. But when it came down to serious training, they poured it all in the gym. Rocky Marciano was already doing plyometrics with his trainer back in the day. He was said to run 15 to 19 miles each day to maintain a tip top shape. Bernard Hopkins and Floyd Mayweather, Jr. are great examples of old school type of fighters. Even without a fight, they maintain their bodies at a certain weight that once they set foot in the gym, cutting weight would be the least of their concerns. Floyd runs 8 miles a day and he and Bernard act as their own nutritionists by regulating what they eat, They don't drink or smoke and they don't abuse their bodies. Except for the Sturm fight when he was badly out of shape, Oscar maintained a good body throughout his career. He didn't indulge in excess. The only time he was so dependent on a conditioning coach when he had to go back down to Welterweight, after many years, to fight Pacquiao. They are modern day boxers who fought less in a year but their physical form and conditioning resembled the throwback fighters. Marquez found the assistance of a conditioning coach indispensable after bungling up his first attempt at Welterweight division. He was so focused on bulking up that he paid little attention if his speed would be compromised. Conditioning trainers become in demand only in cases when a star boxer is getting too fat in between fights like Morales or a star boxer is trying to defy time to improve his speed and power like Marquez. But when a boxer is in his normal weight class and maintaining a strict diet, their presence is no longer needed. Take the case of a highly disciplined Marquez during his Featherweight and Lightweight days. Manny Pacquiao was a conditioning coach of his own when he was still fighting in the Featherweight division. Though there were hitches when he indulged so much in his vices but his hunger and determination made up for his presence in the gym. He worked himself to death. Justin Fortune's highlight role was entirely focused on Manny's achilles heel which was the strengthening of his abdomen with a Thai stick. Ariza became an integral part, as he prides himself that way, of Team Pacquiao when Manny had to scale weight divisions and there were concerns if he could retain his speed and power. Now that Manny has settled to one weight class, Ariza finds his role diminished. I could understand that little problem going on inside the camp right now. Either Manny is a hard-head to follow the same regimen they''ve been doing the past few years or Ariza is losing control of his command because there's nothing new he could offer anymore. It won't surprise me if Roach finds his services obsolete in the next fight.



agree 1000+


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:54 pm 
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Most of them are steroid buyer/pusher

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:11 pm 
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Lifer wrote:
Kamatis wrote:
It's like asking, do cars need mechanics? Yes. And no, mechanics aren't overrated.


Bad analogy. You don't have to be a mechanic to fine tune your car. You take your car to the shop when there's something needs to be fixed.


:lol: we're not talking about just any cars here...these are race cars as to pro boxers. An ordinary person can of course conditioned and streghten his own self. But, a pro boxer needs an expert to do it, in this era. Now, gets mo na?

Quote:
You take your car to the shop when there's something needs to be fixed


:lol: obob

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:41 pm 
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twinkie79 wrote:
Most of them are steroid buyer/pusher

That's the idea, and again.."Only a thin line exist between supplements and PEDs" that only S&C experts can distinguish and apply professionally. Justine Fortune, Ellerbe and Angel Heredia were/are S&C coaches to Pacquiao, Mayweather and Marquez. All boxers are suspected to have juiced at one point because they excel in their body conditioning up to the present.

Quote:
...Justin Fortune's highlight role was entirely focused on Manny's achilles heel which was the strengthening of his abdomen with a Thai stick. Ariza became an integral part, as he prides himself that way, of Team Pacquiao when Manny had to scale weight divisions and there were concerns if he could retain his speed and power. Now that Manny has settled to one weight class, Ariza finds his role diminished. I could understand that little problem going on inside the camp right now. [b]Either Manny is a hard-head to follow the same regimen they''ve been doing the past few years or Ariza is losing control of his command because there's nothing new he could offer anymore. It won't surprise me if Roach finds his services obsolete in the next fight.


On the other hand, if Manny loses to Marquez (many believed Pac lost the third fight) in the next fight with the aid once more of S&C coach Angel Heredia, it's not surprising if Ariza stays put in Garcia's camp and leave Roach & Manny's camp permanently. :(

But I hope Manny's speed and aggressive style can still overcome Marquez added bulk &
strength with an early KD/KO. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:53 pm 
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Lildevalt wrote:
andycastro wrote:

We are talking here of supplements in addition to regular training. When fights are so far between, can you name an elite fighter of today who don't bulge up in between fights? Pacquiao, Mayweather, Martinez, Chavez Jr., Amir Khan, Morales, Marquez & Nonito Jr to name some, benefitted from S&C applied supplements either to reduce weight or gain strength. :D

Discipline is the best supplement. That's what modern great fighters like Hopkins and Mayweather live by when fights are far between. Hagler didn't fight that much in a year but it was amazing how he maintained his form in the vicinity of middleweight division in his entire career. They didn't rely on supplements. The irony of it all, in this age of supplements and conditioning coaches, we are producing less and less quality boxers, let alone future hall of famers and all time greats.


Supplements (tangible) cannot be substituted with discipline (intangible). A boxer needs both. And two articles about the fighters you mentioned tell different stories. Both have been suspected of PEDs usage.

Quote:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110328160237AA2AvjK

The hypocrisy and the double standards are exposed again...............a man who KEEPS TALKING FOR RACIAL SUPREMACY ALL THE TIME, STILL DENIES TO TAKE THE DAMN TESTS AND NONE CARES IN HIS CASE. Let's face it, our world is not fair, why boxing would be? Obviously a certain country has the upper hand.................and don't dare to accuse me for racism, because the man who is calling out Hopkins IS A BLACK MAN, JUST NOT FROM THE US :)


Quote:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056811296

Thomas Hauser Article on Floyd Mayweather Jr's Failed Drug Tests

"On May 20, 2012, a rumor filtered through the drug-testing community that Mayweather had tested positive on three occasions for an illegal performance-enhancing drug.

More specifically, it was rumored that Mayweather’s “A” sample had tested positive on three occasions and, after each positive test, USADA had found exceptional circumstances in the form of inadvertent use and gave Floyd a waiver. This waiver, according to the rumor, negated the need for a test of Floyd’s “B” sample. And because the “B” sample was never tested, a loophole in USADA’s contract with Mayweather and Golden Boy allowed the testing to proceed without the positive “A” sample results being reported to Mayweather’s opponent or the Nevada State Athletic Commission (which had jurisdiction over the fights).

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:14 pm 
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andycastro wrote:
Lildevalt wrote:
andycastro wrote:

We are talking here of supplements in addition to regular training. When fights are so far between, can you name an elite fighter of today who don't bulge up in between fights? Pacquiao, Mayweather, Martinez, Chavez Jr., Amir Khan, Morales, Marquez & Nonito Jr to name some, benefitted from S&C applied supplements either to reduce weight or gain strength. :D

Discipline is the best supplement. That's what modern great fighters like Hopkins and Mayweather live by when fights are far between. Hagler didn't fight that much in a year but it was amazing how he maintained his form in the vicinity of middleweight division in his entire career. They didn't rely on supplements. The irony of it all, in this age of supplements and conditioning coaches, we are producing less and less quality boxers, let alone future hall of famers and all time greats.


Supplements (tangible) cannot be substituted with discipline (intangible). A boxer needs both. And two articles about the fighters you mentioned tell different stories. Both have been suspected of PEDs usage.

Quote:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110328160237AA2AvjK

The hypocrisy and the double standards are exposed again...............a man who KEEPS TALKING FOR RACIAL SUPREMACY ALL THE TIME, STILL DENIES TO TAKE THE DAMN TESTS AND NONE CARES IN HIS CASE. Let's face it, our world is not fair, why boxing would be? Obviously a certain country has the upper hand.................and don't dare to accuse me for racism, because the man who is calling out Hopkins IS A BLACK MAN, JUST NOT FROM THE US :)


Quote:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056811296

Thomas Hauser Article on Floyd Mayweather Jr's Failed Drug Tests

"On May 20, 2012, a rumor filtered through the drug-testing community that Mayweather had tested positive on three occasions for an illegal performance-enhancing drug.

More specifically, it was rumored that Mayweather’s “A” sample had tested positive on three occasions and, after each positive test, USADA had found exceptional circumstances in the form of inadvertent use and gave Floyd a waiver. This waiver, according to the rumor, negated the need for a test of Floyd’s “B” sample. And because the “B” sample was never tested, a loophole in USADA’s contract with Mayweather and Golden Boy allowed the testing to proceed without the positive “A” sample results being reported to Mayweather’s opponent or the Nevada State Athletic Commission (which had jurisdiction over the fights).



The links u provided didn't specifically explain the benefits of supplements. Or why discipline, good body maintenance and clean living, is on par with supplements. Did the banned substances improve Mosley, Peterson, Fernando Vargas and Berto's performances and skills? But i can tell u a dozen more modern fighters, s & c - free, who became great fighters on their own. U need to establish that supplements are pivotal to a boxer's success. Positive or not, Floyd has great talents superior to any fighter or else Berto and the rest would be on his level right now.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:47 pm 
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Lildevalt wrote:

The links u provided didn't specifically explain the benefits of supplements. Or why discipline, good body maintenance and clean living, is on par with supplements. Did the banned substances improve Mosley, Peterson, Fernando Vargas and Berto's performances and skills? But i can tell u a dozen more modern fighters, s & c - free, who became great fighters on their own. U need to establish that supplements are pivotal to a boxer's success. Positive or not, Floyd has great talents superior to any fighter or else Berto and the rest would be on his level right now.

The links I provided cast doubts on your assertion the great boxers you mentioned did not use supplements since they have been suspected to have used PEDs like Pacquiao and Marquez.
As to the other fighters you mentioned, (Mosley, Peterson Vargas, etc.) except Hagler who like Duran and Leonard fought mostly when weigh-ins were conducted day of the fight. (meaning at that time S&C coaches were not fully appreciated as today.) the following applies;

andycastro wrote:
ako_barok wrote:
Records are broken. Everything evolves. Science works.

Strength and conditioning coaches are not overrated. They are an integral
part of the team--if a boxer is dead serious to excel and come out on top.

An interesting example is the video that compares how each 100-meter
freestyle winner in an Olympic year would fare, if they were to compete at
the same time.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/01/sports/olympics/racing-against-history.html

The graph underneath the vid shows the same Olympic records of 100-meter
freestyle winners throughout its history. The horizontal axis represents the
length of the pool in meters, the vertical axis--the Olympic year, and each dot,
the winner of said year.

As better nutrition, superb conditioning, and scientific techniques gradually
inject themselves as time goes on, the champion swimmer achieves a better record.

So, back to boxing, given two boxers of equal skill where each subscribes to the
services of a strength and conditioning coach, the outcome is a flip of a coin.

Two boxers of equal skill where one has a s&c coach and one has none, I'd
put my money on the former.

Two boxers without s&c coaches, the skillful boxer wins.


Pacquiao, skipping s&c, against Marquez, deep into s&c--for me--is a flip of
a coin. May the most deserving boxer win.

EDIT:

The same pattern emerges for the Olympic long jump and 100-meter sprint.
Just scroll down the same page to click on the image link.

Very true. Applicable in almost all physical sports today. We hear Ariza employs a basketball S&C
coach in his program with Pacquiao & others. Nonito employs a track & field coach in training.
:)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:04 pm 
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Lildevalt wrote:
The links u provided didn't specifically explain the benefits of supplements. Or why discipline, good body maintenance and clean living, is on par with supplements. Did the banned substances improve Mosley, Peterson, Fernando Vargas and Berto's performances and skills? But i can tell u a dozen more modern fighters, s & c - free, who became great fighters on their own. U need to establish that supplements are pivotal to a boxer's success. Positive or not, Floyd has great talents superior to any fighter or else Berto and the rest would be on his level right now.

andycastro wrote:
The links I provided cast doubts on your assertion the great boxers you mentioned did not use supplements since they have been suspected to have used PEDs like Pacquiao and Marquez.
As to the other fighters you mentioned, (Mosley, Peterson Vargas, etc.) except Hagler who like Duran and Leonard fought mostly when weigh-ins were conducted day of the fight. (meaning at that time S&C coaches were not fully appreciated as today.) the following applies;


Same day weigh in was abolished in 1983 triggered by the cancellation of Spinks vs, Muhammad when the former refused to fight his overweight opponent. That said, leonard, hagler and duran still performed just as good after the weigh in was reset a day before the fight. 80s produced great fighters like Arguello, Wilfredo Gomez, Holmes, pryor. Then, Hopkins, Roy jones, Finito Lopez. All natural fighters who didnt need supplements and conditioning trainers. One exception though was Holyfield because he was moving from Light Heavyweight to Heavyweight division and he needed to develop raw muscles to bulk up while retaining his speed and power. As in most cases, conditioning coaches are in demand when a boxer is on a critical weight jump from one division to another.

You are arguing on the basis of suspicion, that supplements had been used in the past to enhance a fighter's performance, rather than facts. Of course, there were stories circulating around that this and that boxer is on Peds but they were just speculations until proven true. That includes Marquez, Pacquiao and Mayweather in the bunch. Even oscar was accused of allegedly hiding something. But let's look at the fact, the case of boxers with banned substances in their system. Did they performance and skills improve? If yes, why there are only few great fighters today and the ones who got caught, Mosley, Vargas, Morales and Toney lost?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:06 pm 
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Ok na!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:56 pm 
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TS, your poll is neither here nor there. I refuse to participate hehehe :)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:16 pm 
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Lildevalt wrote:

andycastro wrote:
The links I provided cast doubts on your assertion the great boxers you mentioned did not use supplements since they have been suspected to have used PEDs like Pacquiao and Marquez.As to the other fighters you mentioned, (Mosley, Peterson Vargas, etc.) except Hagler who like Duran and Leonard fought mostly when weigh-ins were conducted day of the fight. (meaning at that time S&C coaches were not fully appreciated as today.) the following applies;


Same day weigh in was abolished in 1983 triggered by the cancellation of Spinks vs, Muhammad when the former refused to fight his overweight opponent. That said, leonard, hagler and duran still performed just as good after the weigh in was reset a day before the fight. 80s produced great fighters like Arguello, Wilfredo Gomez, Holmes, pryor. Then, Hopkins, Roy jones, Finito Lopez. All natural fighters who didnt need supplements and conditioning trainers. One exception though was Holyfield because he was moving from Light Heavyweight to Heavyweight division and he needed to develop raw muscles to bulk up while retaining his speed and power. As in most cases, conditioning coaches are in demand when a boxer is on a critical weight jump from one division to another.

You are arguing on the basis of suspicion, that supplements had been used in the past to enhance a fighter's performance, rather than facts. Of course, there were stories circulating around that this and that boxer is on Peds but they were just speculations until proven true. That includes Marquez, Pacquiao and Mayweather in the bunch. Even oscar was accused of allegedly hiding something. But let's look at the fact, the case of boxers with banned substances in their system. Did they performance and skills improve? If yes, why there are only few great fighters today and the ones who got caught, Mosley, Vargas, Morales and Toney lost?

In throwing your throwback fighters in the mix, you are assuming S&C Coaches and their supplements suddenly appear instead slowly progressing to the present where you admit they are a necessity. Pacquiao, Mayweather & Marquez may not be proven to use PEDs but it's a fact they have their own S&C at one time or another. It is your assumption that the fighters you mentioned didn't use supplements is without basis in fact. Link pls. :lol:

Quote:
Now, conditioning trainers appear to be indispensable in the team. Old school trainers who were either too old and too busy training many fighters at a time like Beristain and Roach found the aide of conditioning coaches rather convenient. The late Manny Steward knew how to condition his fighters and was never dependent on anybody. Justin Fortune had minimal role in Pacquiao's training preparation back in the day when Roach's Parkinson's was still in its early stages. Who ever heard of conditioning trainers meddling with Eddie Futch, Ray Arcel and Angelo Dundee's job? They didn't need Arizas in their time.


Back from throwback fantasies to the present. What the fock is Freddie Roach doing by insinuating Marquez bulking may not be natural? Are S&C coaches overrated today?

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