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Are strenght and conditioning coaches in boxing overrated?
Poll ended at Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:05 pm
I agree most fighters and trainers already know how to get in fighting form. 27%  27%  [ 8 ]
No, they are not overrated and I believe in Kinesiology. 40%  40%  [ 12 ]
It depends who the coach is. 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Case to case basis. 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 30
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:02 pm 
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andycastro wrote:
In throwing your throwback fighters in the mix, you are assuming S&C Coaches and their supplements suddenly appear instead slowly progressing to the present where you admit they are a necessity. Pacquiao, Mayweather & Marquez may not be proven to use PEDs but it's a fact they have their own S&C at one time or another. It is your assumption that the fighters you mentioned didn't use supplements is without basis in fact. Link pls. :lol:


Necessity? Not really. as far as the fighter and coach are concerned but it doesn't mean they can't live without it. It's a case to case basis. Pacquiao might need it but Floyd might not. Henry Armstrong didn't need one when he annexed 3 division titles simultaneously I am not assuming something because if there was an existence of supplements or steroids in boxing as early as that era, it would have been in the news already. Btw, Anabolic steroids first came out in the 50s used by Olympic weightlifters in Europe. There was no report that it actually invaded boxing because the physical benefits against the cons could still not be thoroughly defined. Two decades before that, Armstrong was already multiple title holder in the 30s. What's good for a weightlifter may not be the same to a boxer. Between the two of us, it's u who's doing the assumptions based on a weak suspicion that throwback fighters were already into it but u could never sustain your argument with a fact. The burden of proof lies on u that they were indeed into something already. provide the link, provide the news, provide the fact.

andycastro wrote:
Back from throwback fantasies to the present. What the fock is Freddie Roach doing by insinuating Marquez bulking may not be natural? Are S&C coaches overrated today?


everybody insinuates everything nowadays. freddie has a his reason because Heredia has a shady past.

Yes! S & C coaches are overrated. Pacquiao is a gifted fighter, a freak of nature. He could have carried his speed and power just the name. Armstrong led us the way with no S & C coach, Hearns captured 5 titles with only his trainer behind him. So did Dela Hoya before the Pacquiao fight. Those are facts. U could prove me otherwise with a proof, not just suspicion and insinuation.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:05 pm 
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Lildevalt wrote:
everybody insinuates everything nowadays. freddie has a his reason because Heredia has a shady past.

Yes! S & C coaches are overrated. Pacquiao is a gifted fighter, a freak of nature. He could have carried his speed and power just the name. Armstrong led us the way with no S & C coach, Hearns captured 5 titles with only his trainer behind him. So did Dela Hoya before the Pacquiao fight. Those are facts. U could prove me otherwise with a proof, not just suspicion and insinuation.


It's not about "everybody insinuating everything nowadays". It's about Freddie Roach concern for what Angel Heredia did with Marquez's body and strength. Someone who now says Arriza is very much dispensable is worried about the equally dispensable Angel Heredia.

Pacquiao being able to carry his speed and power to the higher weights without Ariza is highly speculative and not probable. Again the throwback fighters fought so often maintaining their bodies in and out of the ring most of their time. The fact that their training regimen is equivalent to supplements of today will never be proven.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:30 pm 
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andycastro wrote:

Pacquiao being able to carry his speed and power to the higher weights without Ariza is highly speculative and not probable.


Really? And what do u call these statements of yours...


andycastro wrote:
Supplements (tangible) cannot be substituted with discipline (intangible). A boxer needs both. And two articles about the fighters you mentioned tell different stories. Both have been suspected of PEDs usage.


andycastro wrote:
The sweet science has evolved from a sport where coaches have minimal intervention to a more complicated science where body conditioning is a must to survive the competition. Too many weight divisions and weigh ins a day before the actual fight heavily contributed to this state of boxing. From sweet science to the science of supplements.


Statement of facts or highly speculative in nature?

Then, present to us by definition and example supplements are just as important as discipline?
What did the science of supplements did to the career of Mosley, Vargas, Toney and Morales?
If im not mistaken, they lost their fights after being caught with banned substances inside their system.
Did the highly scientific S & C aide that Dela Hoya go through before the pacquiao fight enhance his physical form and performance?
Or the velocity training that Morales went through before the Pacquiao rubbermatch?

Tell me something new, tol. :biglaugh:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:45 pm 
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andycastro wrote:
Lildevalt wrote:
everybody insinuates everything nowadays. freddie has a his reason because Heredia has a shady past.

Yes! S & C coaches are overrated. Pacquiao is a gifted fighter, a freak of nature. He could have carried his speed and power just the name. Armstrong led us the way with no S & C coach, Hearns captured 5 titles with only his trainer behind him. So did Dela Hoya before the Pacquiao fight. Those are facts. U could prove me otherwise with a proof, not just suspicion and insinuation.


It's not about "everybody insinuating everything nowadays". It's about Freddie Roach concern for what Angel Heredia did with Marquez's body and strength. Someone who now says Arriza is very much dispensable is worried about the equally dispensable Angel Heredia.

Pacquiao being able to carry his speed and power to the higher weights without Ariza is highly speculative and not probable. Again the throwback fighters fought so often maintaining their bodies in and out of the ring most of their time. The fact that their training regimen is equivalent to supplements of today will never be proven.


Saying Heredia has a shady past is a straight answer as u can get. Did it ever occur to u THAT one possibility for Roach saying that is to irritate the other camp? Im sure u are no novice to mind games played by coaches, not only by Roach, but by other camps as well? And Roach is not exactly a straight shooter when it comes to prefight hype. U could hear him saying Manny is 100% fit but after the fight, he'd say Manny injured his right foot during training,etc.

How many times did Mayweather, Hopkins, leonard, Hagler and Hearns fight in a year? 2 or 3 times? They were almost always in perfect shape but THEY ARE NOT THROWBACK FIGHTERS. THEY DIDNT FIGHT THAT OFTEN. THEY DONT HAVE 100 FIGHTS LIKE ARMSTRONG AND ROBINSON. Now, tell me, did any of those fighters owe their success to S & C trainer or they owed their success to their hardwork, discipline and perseverance?


Last edited by Lildevalt on Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:49 pm 
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andycastro wrote:
Supplements (tangible) cannot be substituted with discipline (intangible). A boxer needs both. And two articles about the fighters you mentioned tell different stories. Both have been suspected of PEDs usage.


It appears u have a problem defining facts. Suspicion is not a fact. A suspected user should be proven guilty by hard evidence before it becomes a fact.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:58 pm 
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Lildevalt wrote:
andycastro wrote:
Pacquiao being able to carry his speed and power to the higher weights without Ariza is highly speculative and not probable.


Really? And what do u call these statements of yours...

andycastro wrote:
Supplements (tangible) cannot be substituted with discipline (intangible). A boxer needs both. And two articles about the fighters you mentioned tell different stories. Both have been suspected of PEDs usage.


andycastro wrote:
The sweet science has evolved from a sport where coaches have minimal intervention to a more complicated science where body conditioning is a must to survive the competition. Too many weight divisions and weigh ins a day before the actual fight heavily contributed to this state of boxing. From sweet science to the science of supplements.


Statement of facts or highly speculative in nature?

Then, present to us by definition and example supplements are just as important as discipline?
What did the science of supplements did to the career of Mosley, Vargas, Toney and Morales?
If im not mistaken, they lost their fights after being caught with banned substances inside their system.
Did the highly scientific S & C aide that Dela Hoya go through before the pacquiao fight enhance his physical form and performance?
Or the velocity training that Morales went through before the Pacquiao rubbermatch?

Tell me something new, tol. :biglaugh:

"Marquez's newfound strength, Manny's leg cramps, Freddie's mind games...all these doubts can only be answered on Dec 8" ...Alex Ariza.
Amen to that. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:03 pm 
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Lildevalt wrote:
andycastro wrote:
Pacquiao being able to carry his speed and power to the higher weights without Ariza is highly speculative and not probable.


Really? And what do u call these statements of yours...

andycastro wrote:
Supplements (tangible) cannot be substituted with discipline (intangible). A boxer needs both. And two articles about the fighters you mentioned tell different stories. Both have been suspected of PEDs usage.


andycastro wrote:
The sweet science has evolved from a sport where coaches have minimal intervention to a more complicated science where body conditioning is a must to survive the competition. Too many weight divisions and weigh ins a day before the actual fight heavily contributed to this state of boxing. From sweet science to the science of supplements.


Statement of facts or highly speculative in nature?

Then, present to us by definition and example supplements are just as important as discipline?
What did the science of supplements did to the career of Mosley, Vargas, Toney and Morales?
If im not mistaken, they lost their fights after being caught with banned substances inside their system.
Did the highly scientific S & C aide that Dela Hoya go through before the pacquiao fight enhance his physical form and performance?
Or the velocity training that Morales went through before the Pacquiao rubbermatch?

Tell me something new, tol. :biglaugh:

andycastro wrote:
"Marquez's newfound strength, Manny's leg cramps, Freddie's mind games...all these doubts can only be answered on Dec 8" ...Alex Ariza.
Amen to that. :D


U take HBO 24/7 seriously. Oh, Ariza also said even God could not save Marquez before the 3rd fight. We know what happened. It's just talk. Pure hype.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:03 pm 
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If you have this hobby in breading game fowls, you will understand how important this is. Everything now is about science and calculation. The 15 rounds that they mentioned before has an even playing field because both fighters have their guts and fighting spirit with them together with hard work but if you will hand pick those fighters before and let them fight with the guys today with conditioning coaches, I doubt if they can out perform today's boxers.

Again I took this in my perspective because I am a game fowl enthusiast but I could be wrong though. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:56 pm 
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redhorse wrote:
If you have this hobby in breading game fowls, you will understand how important this is. Everything now is about science and calculation. The 15 rounds that they mentioned before has an even playing field because both fighters have their guts and fighting spirit with them together with hard work but if you will hand pick those fighters before and let them fight with the guys today with conditioning coaches, I doubt if they can out perform today's boxers.

Again I took this in my perspective because I am a game fowl enthusiast but I could be wrong though. :D

Breeder ka pala ng manok bro, matanong ko lang. Kailangan ba ang sparring sa manok at gaano ba kadalas ito bago ilaban?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:25 am 
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Some are stupid. Like Marquez's conditioning Coach. According to him in 24/7 3, Doping is like a snake. When you cut its head off, it grows again. Really? A snake? What sort of? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:15 am 
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no.1fan wrote:
Some are stupid. Like Marquez's conditioning Coach. According to him in 24/7 3, Doping is like a snake. When you cut its head off, it grows again. Really? A snake? What sort of? :lol: :lol: :lol:

They should use pee as an example instead. After you pee and drunk it, it becomes pee again. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:35 am 
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Lildevalt wrote:
andycastro wrote:
Supplements (tangible) cannot be substituted with discipline (intangible). A boxer needs both. And two articles about the fighters you mentioned tell different stories. Both have been suspected of PEDs usage.


It appears u have a problem defining facts. Suspicion is not a fact. A suspected user should be proven guilty by hard evidence before it becomes a fact.


PED usage is suspicion. Supplements are facts. Remember I said this;
"A thin dividing line exists between supplements and PEDs. An expert S&C coach is needed to distinguish one from the other". Being suspected of PED usage means a fighter might have ingested either a supplement or a PED. It appears you know nothing about supplements if you didn't know this, tol. Did you know that some supplements gave false positives in the past until the test methods were altered to correct this?

Sobrang pagpapantasya sa mga throwback fighters ay itapon mo na , tol. :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:06 am 
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Quote:
DISCIPLINE, to put it simply, is a lot more valuable than a supplement and conditioning coach.


Quote:
Supplements (tangible) cannot be substituted with discipline (intangible). A boxer needs both.


Granting that discipline is more valuable than a supplement, then why deprive the boxer of equally important supplements that can only be provided by expert S&C coaches. Manny can have Freddie & Ariza, right? A throwback trainer & a modern S&C coach. Come to think of it. The combination has produced the first 8 division champion in boxing history in Manny Pacquiao.

What gave you the idea Manny could have done it without Alex Ariza, tol?
It's your throwback fighters, tol. :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:53 am 
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andycastro wrote:
Lildevalt wrote:
andycastro wrote:
Supplements (tangible) cannot be substituted with discipline (intangible). A boxer needs both. And two articles about the fighters you mentioned tell different stories. Both have been suspected of PEDs usage.


It appears u have a problem defining facts. Suspicion is not a fact. A suspected user should be proven guilty by hard evidence before it becomes a fact.


PED usage is suspicion. Supplements are facts. Remember I said this;
"A thin dividing line exists between supplements and PEDs. An expert S&C coach is needed to distinguish one from the other". Being suspected of PED usage means a fighter might have ingested either a supplement or a PED. It appears you know nothing about supplements if you didn't know this, tol. Did you know that some supplements gave false positives in the past until the test methods were altered to correct this?

Sobrang pagpapantasya sa mga throwback fighters ay itapon mo na , tol. :lol:


Ano raw? PEDS usage is suspicion? :lol:
So, u mean Mosley, Morales, Berto, etc, tested positive for banned substances due to suspicion? Guilty by suspicion? lol

Ok, Mr. Supplements expert, tell me the specific benefits of supplements to a fighter's performance and give me the names of supplements.
Supplements are facts, sabi mo. Prove it by example and list. Educate me, tol. :biglaugh:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:01 am 
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this is what a forum discussion should be like.

civil, intelligent back and forth.


kudos to lildevalt and andycastro...

now, if I may chip in with my opinion. I am no science expert, but there is no denying what a knowledgable S&C coach can add to an athlete's performance.
Targeted strength training is instrumental in Pacquiao's ascencion to higher weight class. Nutrition also played a vital role with the whole process of bulking up with functional muscle mass and not just gaining weight. If Pacquiao did not have a good S&C coach to guide him with the proper science on how to do this, he would've relied on unscientific approaches to gain mass. That is what Marquez went through when he bulked up for the Mayweather fight. He ended up drinking his own pee.

Now Marquez has Heredia, they have a new partnership and Marquez is listening to and following everything his S&C coach is telling him to do. Granted, Heredia has A WELL DOCUMENTED reputation as a known PEDS peddler, but he also has a legit, sports and nutrition background, maybe that's all he's using with Marquez right now. And since there is no proof otherwise, that is what I choose to believe.

My issue with Pacquiao's S&C coach is that it seems to me now that Manny does not listen or follow Ariza's coaching anymore.
Maybe Ariza is no longer the best S&C coach for Manny. Maybe Ariza can no longer push Pacquiao to do what is needed? The familiarity is there and Ariza is not willing to push for more because he doesn't want to risk losing his position with Manny?
These are just speculation on my part. But the moment a coach no longer command the attention and commitment of his athlete, it's time to sever the relationship. Maybe a new voice is needed. You see that all the time in team sports and coaches. The athletes tune out the coaches for whatever reason. Maybe that's where Ariza and Pacquiao is at.

That's why you can sense his frustration when Ariza admitted that Roach & Manny chose to focus on the boxing aspect this training camp more and less on the strength and conditioning side.


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