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Are strenght and conditioning coaches in boxing overrated?
Poll ended at Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:05 pm
I agree most fighters and trainers already know how to get in fighting form. 27%  27%  [ 8 ]
No, they are not overrated and I believe in Kinesiology. 40%  40%  [ 12 ]
It depends who the coach is. 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Case to case basis. 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 30
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:20 am 
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Lildevalt wrote:
Ano raw? PEDS usage is suspicion? :lol:
So, u mean Mosley, Morales, Berto, etc, tested positive for banned substances due to suspicion? Guilty by suspicion? lol

Ok, Mr. Supplements expert, tell me the specific benefits of supplements to a fighter's performance and give me the names of supplements.
Supplements are facts, sabi mo. Prove it by example and list. Educate me, tol. :biglaugh:


I think you are getting the wrong impression here Lildevalt, I don't think he's saying the supplements makes one a better fighter. No supplement can make you become a better athlete. Nutritional supplements as the name suggest is just that. It allows anyone, athletes and common folks to get the extra nutrition, vitamins and minerals that help in our overall health, that we may not get from our typical diet alone. For example, proteins can be supplemented from whey powdered drinks, instead of trying to digest x amount of chicken or beef. Vitamin C can be supplemented by a capsule of vit C concentrate instead of trying to eat x amount of citrus fruit.

So there is no such thing as list of supplement that shows specific benefits to a fighter's performance. But I'm sure there's scientific, medical proof of the benefits of supplement to a person's overall health.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:34 am 
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Lildevalt wrote:

Ano raw? PEDS usage is suspicion? :lol:
So, u mean Mosley, Morales, Berto, etc, tested positive for banned substances due to suspicion? Guilty by suspicion? lol

Ok, Mr. Supplements expert, tell me the specific benefits of supplements to a fighter's performance and give me the names of supplements.
Supplements are facts, sabi mo. Prove it by example and list. Educate me, tol. :biglaugh:

You know very well we are talking about two boxing greats Hopkins & Mayweather wth this PED usage suspicion issue. Mosley was guilty by admission. Morales & Berto tested positive by VADA, but that's another story. Fact is they used supplements as well.

No need to be a supplement expert to know that Ariza gave Manny plenty of protein shakes to bulk up to a higher weight class. And before you steer me back to debating with your favorite fantasy throwback fighters, I decline to name any other supplements other than "protein shakes". :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:43 am 
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bringpacmantobigd wrote:
Lildevalt wrote:
Ano raw? PEDS usage is suspicion? :lol:
So, u mean Mosley, Morales, Berto, etc, tested positive for banned substances due to suspicion? Guilty by suspicion? lol

Ok, Mr. Supplements expert, tell me the specific benefits of supplements to a fighter's performance and give me the names of supplements.
Supplements are facts, sabi mo. Prove it by example and list. Educate me, tol. :biglaugh:


I think you are getting the wrong impression here Lildevalt, I don't think he's saying the supplements makes one a better fighter. No supplement can make you become a better athlete. Nutritional supplements as the name suggest is just that. It allows anyone, athletes and common folks to get the extra nutrition, vitamins and minerals that help in our overall health, that we may not get from our typical diet alone. For example, proteins can be supplemented from whey powdered drinks, instead of trying to digest x amount of chicken or beef. Vitamin C can be supplemented by a capsule of vit C concentrate instead of trying to eat x amount of citrus fruit.

So there is no such thing as list of supplement that shows specific benefits to a fighter's performance. But I'm sure there's scientific, medical proof of the benefits of supplement to a person's overall health.


If u read back our exchanges, there, u would see that andy put supplements and discipline on the same level of importance. I bet even u could tell me the concrete benefits of discipline more than u could tell me the benefits of supplements to a fighter's conditioning and performance. There were all time greats, throwback and modern, who were in great shape and fought 15 rounders. Andy said, throwback fighters were expected to be in tip top shape because they fought too often in a year. Well, i countered, Hagler, Hopkins and Mayweather fought just as frequent as Pacquiao but strict discipline, even without fights, made things easier for them to condition their body during training preparation. Cutting weight was no longer a problem.

All that said, which do u think is more fact than fiction? The direct benefits of self-discipline or supplements to a boxer? Would u consider them on the same level?

Please read this article....

http://www.google.com.ph/url?sa=t&rct=j ... SyKjzaYZTQ

Quote:
The Most Potent and Powerful Supplement I give Manny Pacquiao
by Alex Ariza57 Comments


There is a “Manny Pack” that I developed Exclusively for Manny Pacquiao. It is not sold to the public.It contains everything I think the champ needs to perform at his best.I am currently getting this pack made for the public. The deal I am working on is to make it exclusive to my readers and the people that want something that actually works.I believe I will have this pack to the public within the next few weeks.That being said, my favorite supplement in the pack that I give to Manny Pacquiao has to be Glucosamine. (commonly sold in forms of Glucosamine Sulfate and Glucosamine Hydrochloride.)Now before you go run out an by this supplement please understand something, I have used a variety of forms of this product for years that have been produced by many different companies and I swore this supplement was bogus.I have waisted more money on this supplement than I can tell you. It never did what it claimed to do. The supplement claims it will help relieve joint pain.That was until I started using the company I use now. Do you want to hear the funny truth why I am such a believer? I have a 15 year old dog (name Pibe) He is my son. You know what I mean? He is my family. He has been with me forever-we are bros. I have had him since he was a baby and because of his age my life literally revolves around him now.Two years ago my dog could barely walk. He could not do anything. Could not even make it outside to take a piss. One day a friend of mine said to start giving this glucosamine to my dog and watch the difference. WOW.. I mean my dog jumps up on the couch now, chases kids down the street. He has a life again. I am still blown away to this day. He is a totally different dog.Not only did this supplement help to cure my dog to have a better life it also helped with my rehabilitation with Manny Pacquiao’s ailments. The ailments that were preventing him from being the fighter he is today.Proof is in the pudding and we will see the difference in Manny Pacquiao during this Marquez fight in November compared to the two previous bouts that Manny had against Juan Manuel Marquez.I am going to make a prediction for this fight coming out in November.My prediction is Manny Pacquiao will destroy Marquez. I mean he will destroy him.The reason is Manny Pacquiao is a totally different fighter today than he was the last time the two of them fought. Most people do not know the ailments Manny had when I met him.I was able to devise certain exercises and stretching routines, along with the implementation of FDA Approved supplementation, which includes Glucosamine to help get Manny Pacquiao where he is today.People do not think about this, but when the champ was having certain ailments with his shoulders and legs he could not practice or train like he does now. Now in the gym he is alway in tip top shape. His health is great and his training is ridiculous.When Manny Pacquiao trains this hard everyday without pain he is that much better and that much stronger in the ring come fight night. This is why he is dominating people the way he is.It is because he now is operating at 100%.When you add the proper diet, the proper workouts, the proper stretching routine and the proper supplementation to someone that was already as good as the Pacman you are going to get these results.I want to use this fight against Marquez as my stamp on the success I have had with Manny. I was not there the past two Marquez fights. I started with Pacquiao during Diaz.The best of Pacquiao is yet to come.Glucosamine has been a big factor of his success.Be careful and do not buy that crap out there that does not work. I am telling you that there is a difference between supplement companies and the quality of their product.I will get you guys the Manny Packs, because you guys have been wanting them for so long.If you ad them to your daily healthy meals, you do the proper workouts and stretching, you will have a much healthier and stronger life a head of you.I hope I am helping all of you with these blogs. I really appreciate the fans support. I read your comments and see the threads on Pacland.I am here for you guys.Thanks for your support.I am training Julio Cesar Chavez JR. in two weeks for his fight coming up in September. We will get you guys even better footage than last time, so you can see his training first hand. This kid has a lot of heart and I am proud of him. Thank you guys for supporting him too. He told me last night that he wants to be on the site again. He felt a lot of love from the fans and wants to put on a better show for you guys this next fight and also have you take a look at his training.

Thank you for all your support,Until next time

Alex


That article came out before the Marquez-Pacquiao 3rd fight.
Tol, what's your observation of Manny's physical condition in that fight, especially the later rounds?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:51 am 
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andycastro wrote:
Lildevalt wrote:

Ano raw? PEDS usage is suspicion? :lol:
So, u mean Mosley, Morales, Berto, etc, tested positive for banned substances due to suspicion? Guilty by suspicion? lol

Ok, Mr. Supplements expert, tell me the specific benefits of supplements to a fighter's performance and give me the names of supplements.
Supplements are facts, sabi mo. Prove it by example and list. Educate me, tol. :biglaugh:

You know very well we are talking about two boxing greats Hopkins & Mayweather wth this PED usage suspicion issue. Mosley was guilty by admission. Morales & Berto tested positive by VADA, but that's another story. Fact is they used supplements as well.

No need to be a supplement expert to know that Ariza gave Manny plenty of protein shakes to bulk up to a higher weight class. And before you steer me back to debating with your favorite fantasy throwback fighters, I decline to name any other supplements other than "protein shakes". :lol:


Dyan lumagapak sa lupa ang argumento mo tol. How could u prove to me your facts if u refuse to name them? Baka hinde mo alam? :biglaugh:

Hinde mo pwede i categorize si Hopkins kanila Morales dahil ang isa ay suspected while the other was found guilty.
One is speculation, the other is FACT.

Read my response above and read the article. Most potent supplement daw na binigay nya kay Manny before his 3rd fight with marquez pero before round 10, parang tambucho na sa laki ang butas ng ilong ni Manny sa kahihingal. :biglaugh:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:16 am 
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andycastro wrote:
Quote:
DISCIPLINE, to put it simply, is a lot more valuable than a supplement and conditioning coach.


Quote:
Supplements (tangible) cannot be substituted with discipline (intangible). A boxer needs both.


Granting that discipline is more valuable than a supplement, then why deprive the boxer of equally important supplements that can only be provided by expert S&C coaches. Manny can have Freddie & Ariza, right? A throwback trainer & a modern S&C coach. Come to think of it. The combination has produced the first 8 division champion in boxing history in Manny Pacquiao.

What gave you the idea Manny could have done it without Alex Ariza, tol?
It's your throwback fighters, tol. :lol:


Tol, Manny was already 4 time division titlist when Ariza joined the team. Even without Ariza by his side, boxing experts would still pick him to win over David Diaz for his 5th division title. Before Ariza came along, Top Rank and HBO anchors were already resembling Manny to an 'ENERGIZER BUNNY" because of his high punch output and tireless energy inside the ring which speaks volumes of his fine conditioning. He's a freak of nature just as Armstrong and Hopkins were which made Ariza's job easier. Manny was hungry and highly motivated to achieve greater heights. Kudos to Roach also for scheming the best game plans and Arum for his fine matchmaking. U know what makes Pacquiao so special? It's his intangible traits because a lot of great fighters he beat were more skilled than him.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:26 am 
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Lildevalt wrote:
andycastro wrote:

You know very well we are talking about two boxing greats Hopkins & Mayweather wth this PED usage suspicion issue. Mosley was guilty by admission. Morales & Berto tested positive by VADA, but that's another story. Fact is they used supplements as well.

No need to be a supplement expert to know that Ariza gave Manny plenty of protein shakes to bulk up to a higher weight class. And before you steer me back to debating with your favorite fantasy throwback fighters, I decline to name any other supplements other than "protein shakes". :lol:


Dyan lumagapak sa lupa ang argumento mo tol. How could u prove to me your facts if u refuse to name them? Baka hinde mo alam? :biglaugh:

Hinde mo pwede i categorize si Hopkins kanila Morales dahil ang isa ay suspected while the other was found guilty.
One is speculation, the other is FACT.

Read my response above and read the article. Most potent supplement daw na binigay nya kay Manny before his 3rd fight with marquez pero before round 10, parang tambucho na sa laki ang butas ng ilong ni Manny sa kahihingal. :biglaugh:

Lumagapak sa lupa? You posted an article by Ariza advertising his product and you exect us to believe it all? Your assumption that Ariza used these supplements to Manny before the 3rd fight is simply ridiculous. :biglaugh:

Di ba kaya nangamote si Pacquiao doon sa 3rd fight ay dahil sa dami ng distractions at pagpupuyat sa bible studies? Kawalan ng disiplina sa last minute ang dahilan. Kung may lumagapak sa lupa dito, yang mga "fantasy throwback fighters" mo, tol. :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:30 am 
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I would agree with you on that lilDevalt. Supplement and Discipline IS NOT on the same level.

No amount of legal supplement can match the stamina that you will get by regularly running or by sparring.
But supplements has it's place in an athlete's toolbox, by how much, I don't know? I don't think it's quantifiable to be honest with you.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:50 am 
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andycastro wrote:
Lildevalt wrote:
andycastro wrote:

You know very well we are talking about two boxing greats Hopkins & Mayweather wth this PED usage suspicion issue. Mosley was guilty by admission. Morales & Berto tested positive by VADA, but that's another story. Fact is they used supplements as well.

No need to be a supplement expert to know that Ariza gave Manny plenty of protein shakes to bulk up to a higher weight class. And before you steer me back to debating with your favorite fantasy throwback fighters, I decline to name any other supplements other than "protein shakes". :lol:


Dyan lumagapak sa lupa ang argumento mo tol. How could u prove to me your facts if u refuse to name them? Baka hinde mo alam? :biglaugh:

Hinde mo pwede i categorize si Hopkins kanila Morales dahil ang isa ay suspected while the other was found guilty.
One is speculation, the other is FACT.

Read my response above and read the article. Most potent supplement daw na binigay nya kay Manny before his 3rd fight with marquez pero before round 10, parang tambucho na sa laki ang butas ng ilong ni Manny sa kahihingal. :biglaugh:

Lumagapak sa lupa? You posted an article by Ariza advertising his product and you exect us to believe it all? Your assumption that Ariza used these supplements to Manny before the 3rd fight is simply ridiculous. :biglaugh:

Di ba kaya nangamote si Pacquiao doon sa 3rd fight ay dahil sa dami ng distractions at pagpupuyat sa bible studies? Kawalan ng disiplina sa last minute ang dahilan. Kung may lumagapak sa lupa dito, yang mga "fantasy throwback fighters" mo, tol. :lol:


U ask for a link, i gave u one. Straight from the horse's mouth.
I ask for the facts, u decline to name them pero u are so confident in putting supplements and discipline on the same level.
On what basis if your facts are vague?

Now u are making excuses for Pacquiao's subpar performance. I thought naniniwala ka kay Roach and Ariza, di ba nag chorus pa ang dalawa that Manny was in his best form, that he would knock out Marquez and only God can save him?
anong nangyari?

Tol, thanks for your time. This argument is becoming pointless. :peace:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:52 am 
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bringpacmantobigd wrote:
I would agree with you on that lilDevalt. Supplement and Discipline IS NOT on the same level.

No amount of legal supplement can match the stamina that you will get by regularly running or by sparring.
But supplements has it's place in an athlete's toolbox, by how much, I don't know? I don't think it's quantifiable to be honest with you.


You're a class act tol. U just earned my respect. :toast:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:59 pm 
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bringpacmantobigd wrote:

My issue with Pacquiao's S&C coach is that it seems to me now that Manny does not listen or follow Ariza's coaching anymore.
Maybe Ariza is no longer the best S&C coach for Manny. Maybe Ariza can no longer push Pacquiao to do what is needed? The familiarity is there and Ariza is not willing to push for more because he doesn't want to risk losing his position with Manny?
These are just speculation on my part. But the moment a coach no longer command the attention and commitment of his athlete, it's time to sever the relationship. Maybe a new voice is needed. You see that all the time in team sports and coaches. The athletes tune out the coaches for whatever reason. Maybe that's where Ariza and Pacquiao is at.

That's why you can sense his frustration when Ariza admitted that Roach & Manny chose to focus on the boxing aspect this training camp more and less on the strength and conditioning side.

I agreed with your observation when I said in another post (thread) that;
"Ariza is being eased out of Manny's camp to give way for Buboy & Marvin Somodio as members of his new team in preparation for his promotional ventures after he retires." Pacquiao's plan is obvious to Ariza so that he himself is preparing for that eventuality. (He is now a member of Garcia's camp. :shock: ) If we watch that whole interview with Ariza, I barely detected any signs of sourgraping or playing the blame game. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:41 pm 
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redhorse wrote:
If you have this hobby in breeding game fowls, you will understand how important this is. Everything now is about science and calculation. The 15 rounds that they mentioned before has an even playing field because both fighters have their guts and fighting spirit with them together with hard work but if you will hand pick those fighters before and let them fight with the guys today with conditioning coaches, I doubt if they can out perform today's boxers.

Again I took this in my perspective because I am a game fowl enthusiast but I could be wrong though. :D


Your doubts may clear somehow if you watch this particular video of a potential match-up between Pacquiao and Armstrong. After watching said video, my doubts turned to whether Armstrong could survive the first 5 rounds against Manny. :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KUwamvyLDE&feature=plcp

Watch 3.25 to 5.10 to skip the technical descriptions.

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Haters masquerading as boxing fans or "experts" are Pactards of the Worst Kind (CRABS).

"I defend PAC on OSDT and Catchweight Issues; Not his Traditional Politics and Religious Exploits." ...RC


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:44 am 
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overrated indeed.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:12 am 
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Floyd is ALWAYS in superb condition.
Who is his S&C coach?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:58 am 
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kajo wrote:
Floyd is ALWAYS in superb condition.
Who is his S&C coach?

Before, it was Ellerbe. Now it's himself. And according to rumours (Hausser) he tested positive of PEDs 3 times. Remember, "A very thin line exists between supplements and PEDs." A S&C is required to distinguish one from the other.

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"I defend PAC on OSDT and Catchweight Issues; Not his Traditional Politics and Religious Exploits." ...RC


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:14 am 
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andycastro wrote:
kajo wrote:
Floyd is ALWAYS in superb condition.
Who is his S&C coach?

Before, it was Ellerbe. Now it's himself. And according to rumours (Hausser) he tested positive of PEDs 3 times. Remember, "A very thin line exists between supplements and PEDs." A S&C is required to distinguish one from the other.

bro, can you provide a link to that rumour?
One thing about Floyd is that he is a conditioning freak.
He maintains his condition in between fights.

Manny and the others gain weight during those periods.

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