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Are strenght and conditioning coaches in boxing overrated?
Poll ended at Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:05 pm
I agree most fighters and trainers already know how to get in fighting form. 27%  27%  [ 8 ]
No, they are not overrated and I believe in Kinesiology. 40%  40%  [ 12 ]
It depends who the coach is. 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Case to case basis. 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 30
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:05 pm 
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please cast your votes on the poll..you can freely explain your take.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:17 pm 
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It's like asking, do cars need mechanics? Yes. And no, mechanics aren't overrated.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:24 pm 
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Voted :D

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:27 pm 
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Before becoming a CEO I remember that eddie ellerbe used to be mayweather's s&c coach now may doing it on his own. now manny doing his own conditioning did they realize something in there.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:46 pm 
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Sugar Ray Robinson, Armstrong, Ali and many oldtime greats lived in the era of 15 rounds without nutritionists and conditioning coaches. It was basically the trainer and fighter do-it-yourself tandem. Just hardwork and they managed. They were almost always in perfect condition except for the rare times they were too distracted to stay in the gym. Personal problems, nocturnal adventures, et al.

Now, conditioning trainers appear to be indispensable in the team. Old school trainers who were either too old and too busy training many fighters at a time like Beristain and Roach found the aide of conditioning coaches rather convenient. The late Manny Steward knew how to condition his fighters and was never dependent on anybody. Justin Fortune had minimal role in Pacquiao's training preparation back in the day when Roach's Parkinson's was still in its early stages. Who ever heard of conditioning trainers meddling with Eddie Futch, Ray Arcel and Angelo Dundee's job? They didn't need Arizas in their time.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:42 pm 
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Records are broken. Everything evolves. Science works.

Strength and conditioning coaches are not overrated. They are an integral
part of the team--if a boxer is dead serious to excel and come out on top.

An interesting example is the video that compares how each 100-meter
freestyle winner in an Olympic year would fare, if they were to compete at
the same time.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/01/sports/olympics/racing-against-history.html

The graph underneath the vid shows the same Olympic records of 100-meter
freestyle winners throughout its history. The horizontal axis represents the
length of the pool in meters, the vertical axis--the Olympic year, and each dot,
the winner of said year.

As better nutrition, superb conditioning, and scientific techniques gradually
inject themselves as time goes on, the champion swimmer achieves a better record.

So, back to boxing, given two boxers of equal skill where each subscribes to the
services of a strength and conditioning coach, the outcome is a flip of a coin.

Two boxers of equal skill where one has a s&c coach and one has none, I'd
put my money on the former.

Two boxers without s&c coaches, the skillful boxer wins.

Pacquiao, skipping s&c, against Marquez, deep into s&c--for me--is a flip of
a coin. May the most deserving boxer win.

EDIT:

The same pattern emerges for the Olympic long jump and 100-meter sprint.
Just scroll down the same page to click on the image link.


pinoygreatsfan wrote:
please cast your votes on the poll..you can freely explain your take.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:20 am 
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No they are not.

Problem is when they and the sports-specific coach clash like Ariza and Roach.
I don't think Nacho and Heredia are clashing, are they?

Tennis players have tennis coaches and strength and conditioning coaches as well.

Same with basketball players, etc.

If Pac will continue to fight, the more he will need a good stength and conditioning coach as he gets older. Just get one who will get along with Roach. Problem also I think is Pac himself is not inclined to do the stength and conditioning and he just wants to do his old ways. It is ok as long as he honestly feels his old ways work better for him. Doubt it. The personality clash between Roach and Ariza and who knows other members of his team subconsciously affect his assessment of what's good for his body I think. And of course there's the distractions that take time away from training or resting. Man, Pac even got pissed at Ariza when Ariza wanted him to sleep instead of doing something else the night before the fight with JMM 3. That Pac threw a cell phone or something. Ariza was just doing his job. Ariza may be too self-promoting at times but he knows strength and conditioning better than Pacquiao and Roach combined.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:56 am 
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To Manny Pacquiao who is not lazy, yes, but to those who are too lazy and want to get strong and fit in an instant or don't believe in their abilities, no.

The sweet science is an old science.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:54 am 
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In this age of supplements & PEDs in boxing, S&C Coaches are indispensable.

I already answered this question partially in;

Pacquiao Not Doing Strength and Conditioning - ARIZA

viewtopic.php?p=5377906#p5377906

andycastro wrote:
Quote:
Duran, Hearns, Hagler, Chavez (Sr.), Robinson...

Did they have a strength and conditioning coach lurking?

They didn't need strength and conditioning coaches in those times when they fought so often (at least 4 times per year) and weigh-ins were made on the day of the fight. Their bodies were always conditioned for the next fight in their particular weight division. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:40 am 
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did any other boxer improved their performance with utilizing s&c besides manny and jmm. how bout berto or morales are the s&c they got overrated...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:10 am 
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pinoygreatsfan wrote:
did any other boxer improved their performance with utilizing s&c besides manny and jmm. how bout berto or morales are the s&c they got overrated...

Every boxer of today has engaged in modern S&C whether it's done by a coach or by the boxer's trainer. "A very thin line exists between supplements & PEDs" and it takes an expert S&C coach to distinguish one from the other.
Quote:
To Manny Pacquiao who is not lazy, yes, but to those who are too lazy and want to get strong and fit in an instant or don't believe in their abilities, no.

The sweet science is an old science.


Manny Pacquiao, with all the success achieved and the attending distractions has gone lazy in his S&C regimen.

The sweet science has evolved from a sport where coaches have minimal intervention to a more complicated science where body conditioning is a must to survive the competition. Too many weight divisions and weigh ins a day before the actual fight heavily contributed to this state of boxing. From sweet science to the science of supplements.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:18 am 
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pinoygreatsfan wrote:
please cast your votes on the poll..you can freely explain your take.



ANO RAW? :roll: :banghead:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:39 am 
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Sir Benjamin wrote:
pinoygreatsfan wrote:
please cast your votes on the poll..you can freely explain your take.



ANO RAW? :roll: :banghead:

He says S&C coaches are overrated, the same vote that you made. :lol:

Trans: Dalawa lang kayong bumoto ng yes ng TS, tinira mo pa. :shock:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:06 am 
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andycastro wrote:
In this age of supplements & PEDs in boxing, S&C Coaches are indispensable.

I already answered this question partially in;

Pacquiao Not Doing Strength and Conditioning - ARIZA

viewtopic.php?p=5377906#p5377906

andycastro wrote:
Quote:
Duran, Hearns, Hagler, Chavez (Sr.), Robinson...

Did they have a strength and conditioning coach lurking?

They didn't need strength and conditioning coaches in those times when they fought so often (at least 4 times per year) and weigh-ins were made on the day of the fight. Their bodies were always conditioned for the next fight in their particular weight division. :D



DISCIPLINE, to put it simply, is a lot more valuable than a supplement and conditioning coach. Armstrong, Joe Louis and Robinson had busy lives outside of the ring. Womanizing, playing golf, drinking, gambling, u name it. But when it came down to serious training, they poured it all in the gym. Rocky Marciano was already doing plyometrics with his trainer back in the day. He was said to run 15 to 19 miles each day to maintain a tip top shape. Bernard Hopkins and Floyd Mayweather, Jr. are great examples of old school type of fighters. Even without a fight, they maintain their bodies at a certain weight that once they set foot in the gym, cutting weight would be the least of their concerns. Floyd runs 8 miles a day and he and Bernard act as their own nutritionists by regulating what they eat, They don't drink or smoke and they don't abuse their bodies. Except for the Sturm fight when he was badly out of shape, Oscar maintained a good body throughout his career. He didn't indulge in excess. The only time he was so dependent on a conditioning coach when he had to go back down to Welterweight, after many years, to fight Pacquiao. They are modern day boxers who fought less in a year but their physical form and conditioning resembled the throwback fighters. Marquez found the assistance of a conditioning coach indispensable after bungling up his first attempt at Welterweight division. He was so focused on bulking up that he paid little attention if his speed would be compromised. Conditioning trainers become in demand only in cases when a star boxer is getting too fat in between fights like Morales or a star boxer is trying to defy time to improve his speed and power like Marquez. But when a boxer is in his normal weight class and maintaining a strict diet, their presence is no longer needed. Take the case of a highly disciplined Marquez during his Featherweight and Lightweight days. Manny Pacquiao was a conditioning coach of his own when he was still fighting in the Featherweight division. Though there were hitches when he indulged so much in his vices but his hunger and determination made up for his presence in the gym. He worked himself to death. Justin Fortune's highlight role was entirely focused on Manny's achilles heel which was the strengthening of his abdomen with a Thai stick. Ariza became an integral part, as he prides himself that way, of Team Pacquiao when Manny had to scale weight divisions and there were concerns if he could retain his speed and power. Now that Manny has settled to one weight class, Ariza finds his role diminished. I could understand that little problem going on inside the camp right now. Either Manny is a hard-head to follow the same regimen they''ve been doing the past few years or Ariza is losing control of his command because there's nothing new he could offer anymore. It won't surprise me if Roach finds his services obsolete in the next fight.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:06 pm 
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i agree w lildevalt...unless your jumping weight classes and wanted to it the right way...s&c are not that important..since disciplined boxers are always in shape in between fights...


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