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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:17 am 
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The Butcher wrote:
JoeyInCali wrote:
Ali pissed blood after the Foreman fight but won.
Holyfield almost folded in half when Tyson hit him down there.
YOU HAVE TO GUT THOSE OUT.


If I may be out of topic a bit, but I hear a lot of boxers piss blood (or have traces of blood in their urine) after a fight. I'm not sure if it's as uncommon as you think it is.


Maybe, but you don't quit against someone who has less than 12 wins if you are a world contender.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:24 am 
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rhad wrote:
DaBizz wrote:
I didn't see the fight, but according to news reports, he refused to get up...or didn't even try. Was it lack of heart? :(


Yup, that was true the ref even stopped counting for a while and ask El torito to go to the neutral corner. Maybe it was lack
of heart and maybe because his age showed also. The body punching during the clinch affected him so much.


You can't say that unless you're in his situation. Unless you know the physical pain that he was going through at that time....you can't say that he lacks the heart.....


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:26 am 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
The Butcher wrote:
JoeyInCali wrote:
Ali pissed blood after the Foreman fight but won.
Holyfield almost folded in half when Tyson hit him down there.
YOU HAVE TO GUT THOSE OUT.


If I may be out of topic a bit, but I hear a lot of boxers piss blood (or have traces of blood in their urine) after a fight. I'm not sure if it's as uncommon as you think it is.


Maybe, but you don't quit against someone who has less than 12 wins if you are a world contender.


Ala boxers are skilled fighters but I think they get pampered too much,only one i've seen with tha ala trunks who was a bad mf'er is Czar Amonsot,and I heard they kicked him out of the stable.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:28 am 
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Quote:
[
You can't say that unless you're in his situation. Unless you know the physical pain that he was going through at that time....you can't say that he lacks the heart.....

Was he more hurt than Pavlik was against Taylor in the first fight?
Let me say this again, world champions don't quit.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:31 am 
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lapukman wrote:
rhad wrote:
lapukman wrote:
Those body shots did it. The effects caught him in the later rounds. He ran out of gas. The effects of body shots and head shot differs, where on headshots, you only need a few minutes or even seconds to recover. While body shots, may not affect you immediately, but will surely do as the fight goes on. The sad thing is, they (AJ and his team) could have prevented that by not allowing his opponent do that during clinch... they let it happen.


they did not make adjustment on that, but there was one instance that when el torito is about to make clinch
AJ was quick to push him back. AJ was not able to do that consistenly. AJ and his team were so focused on how
to beat Concepcion and they forgot (almost) how to defend AJ from his opponent's offense.


Yeah, this one of the lessons they should learn. I hope they do. They should not think that it is just a "kagat ng lamok".... it may have "dengue" with it


If you could visualize the mental thoughts of AJ and co., it could be like this.

1st few rounds-
"Hey, Concepcion is clinching already. Haha. We didn't even hit him that hard yet. He must be scared."

Then sometimes-
"Boom! Got him with that one. Time to move in for the kill. Agh, he clinched again. No matter, when the ref separates us, we'll finish him off then."

Then on to-
"Okaaaay... Boom! Got him. Okay, checking to see if he's hurt. No? Okay, I'll try again. Just a matter of time..."

Then-
"He's been pushing me all over the place, holding, hitting me while holding... Getting tired here, but I'll nail him yet..."

And then-
"Man, we've tried everything. Still not going down? Let's try again. Boom! No? Okay, how about... Boom boom! No? ... Ouch! Man I'm getting hit a lot now..."

Almost at the end-
"Argh... we're pooped... Arms are tired. Can't throw straight. But he's pressuring me now... Ouch! Man, didn't expect this... Ouch! Three more rounds? ..."

Finally-
"Man we're spent... Oww! Whoa I'm down on my knees. Should I get up? What's the point, we can't seem to hurt him now. Not at this state. What to do... Ref's counting... what? Eight? Nine? Ah forget it..."


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:36 am 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
The Butcher wrote:
JoeyInCali wrote:
Ali pissed blood after the Foreman fight but won.
Holyfield almost folded in half when Tyson hit him down there.
YOU HAVE TO GUT THOSE OUT.


If I may be out of topic a bit, but I hear a lot of boxers piss blood (or have traces of blood in their urine) after a fight. I'm not sure if it's as uncommon as you think it is.


Maybe, but you don't quit against someone who has less than 12 wins if you are a world contender.


I doubt wins and losses are the first things in the minds of severely fatigued fighters getting beaten down...

... But I get your point. Still, the kid's only 19 years old. Can't really say he can't improve on this showing or that he won't be a champ one day.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:37 am 
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panday wrote:
rhad wrote:
DaBizz wrote:
I didn't see the fight, but according to news reports, he refused to get up...or didn't even try. Was it lack of heart? :(


Yup, that was true the ref even stopped counting for a while and ask El torito to go to the neutral corner. Maybe it was lack
of heart and maybe because his age showed also. The body punching during the clinch affected him so much.


You can't say that unless you're in his situation. Unless you know the physical pain that he was going through at that time....you can't say that he lacks the heart.....


Your right I'm not in his situation and of course I cannot say. I said "maybe" and having little or no heart is maybe a possibility
also. Hey don't get me wrong here, my sentiment goes with AJ I'm sad on what happened but it's not in my level to bash a lost fighter. 8)

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He's (Pac) being insulted and accused of wrongdoing because he's so good. - Larry Merchant


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:38 am 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
It's amazing these guys think they can become the next Pacquiao the easy way.
I've seen Pac train at WC ( before the first EM fight ).
TWO HOURS of hard training. That doesn't include the uphill running in the morning.
ALA gym might be a great gym, but the flat running track ( unless they are doing 3-minute sprints ) is close to being worthless.
AJ did not get beat by that punch. Concepcion GUTTED-out a win. And he was the one who was having weight-problems.


Lets stop making excuses Banal was in shape.

Why can't anyone just admit that Banal got beat by the better man.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:43 am 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
Quote:
[
You can't say that unless you're in his situation. Unless you know the physical pain that he was going through at that time....you can't say that he lacks the heart.....

Was he more hurt than Pavlik was against Taylor in the first fight?
Let me say this again, world champions don't quit.


Pavlik was only hurt in that round that Taylor caught him(early in the fight)......It was an accumulation for Banal....Let me say it again....it's always easier for you guys to say that someone lacks the heart because it's not you who's taking the punches.....

If Banal felt that he could've continued then he would have.......but this lack of heart is just pure garbage....


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:43 am 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
Quote:
You can't say that unless you're in his situation. Unless you know the physical pain that he was going through at that time....you can't say that he lacks the heart.....

Was he more hurt than Pavlik was against Taylor in the first fight?
Let me say this again, world champions don't quit.


Not all champions, boxers, or boxers' situations are the same. You've mentioned Pavlik and Ali. How about Manny though? He kinda' gave up in his fight with Singsurat. Sure a body shot took him down, but you kinda saw that he could still get up if he wanted to. But he was resigned to his dehydration and fatigue, so he didn't. Or how about Morales in his 3rd fight against Manny. He was visibly alright, even managed to look to his corner and shake his head. How about the most famous quitter of all? You can't say Roberto "no mas" Duran is not a champion. Not everyone is like an Israel Vazquez, or Chico Corrales who go out on their shields.

Once again, different champions, different boxers, different situations.


Last edited by The Butcher on Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:44 am 
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Quote:
Lets stop making excuses Banal was in shape.

Why can't anyone just admit that Banal got beat by the better man.

The better man was losing the fight.
AJ quit. No excuses for that.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:50 am 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
Quote:
Lets stop making excuses Banal was in shape.

Why can't anyone just admit that Banal got beat by the better man.

The better man was losing the fight.
AJ quit. No excuses for that.


The fight ain't over unitl the fat lady sings. AJ quite because he got got dropped and didn''t have the heart to continue.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:52 am 
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Not all champions, boxers, or boxers' situations are the same. You've mentioned Pavlik and Ali. How about Manny though? He kinda' gave up in his fight with Singsurat. Sure a body shot took him down, but you kinda saw that he could still get up if he wanted to. But he was resigned to his dehydration and fatigue, so he didn't. Or how about Morales in his 3rd fight against Manny. He was visibly alright, even managed to look to his corner and shake his head. How about the most famous quitter of all? You can't say Roberto "no mas" Duran is not a champion. Not everyone is like an Israel Vazquez, or Chico Corrales who go out on their shields.

Once again, different champions, different boxers, different situations.

Pac had NOTHING in the tank that day and already lost his belt on the way to the ring.
That fight was a lesson to Pac. Pac's former American trainer Rick Staheli told me Pac has a naturally weak body. So he needed a lot of body work. His trainers were incompetent too after they fired Staheli. Look at Pac's body now. He takes body punches well now.
Morales quit. No excuses too but he probably was thinking retirement already.
AJ? Going for a belt, undefeated ? You should not quit like that.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:02 am 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
The Butcher wrote:
Not all champions, boxers, or boxers' situations are the same. You've mentioned Pavlik and Ali. How about Manny though? He kinda' gave up in his fight with Singsurat. Sure a body shot took him down, but you kinda saw that he could still get up if he wanted to. But he was resigned to his dehydration and fatigue, so he didn't. Or how about Morales in his 3rd fight against Manny. He was visibly alright, even managed to look to his corner and shake his head. How about the most famous quitter of all? You can't say Roberto "no mas" Duran is not a champion. Not everyone is like an Israel Vazquez, or Chico Corrales who go out on their shields.

Once again, different champions, different boxers, different situations.


Pac had NOTHING in the tank that day and already lost his belt on the way to the ring.
That fight was a lesson to Pac. Pac's former American trainer Rick Staheli told me Pac has a naturally weak body. So he needed a lot of body work. His trainers were incompetent too after they fired Staheli. Look at Pac's body now. He takes body punches well now.
Morales quit. No excuses too but he probably was thinking retirement already.
AJ? Going for a belt, undefeated? You should not quit like that.


I agree with everything you said. For your explanations on Pac and Morales (though you left out anything on Duran), once again, different boxers, different situations. And for the last sentence, yep, probably could have ended in a more pleasing manner. But being drained before the fight, and in the middle of it, really doesn't make a difference. If you've got nothing left in the tank, then you've got nothing left in the tank. Assuming AJ did get up, only to get beaten down again, this time for good. Would that have made us feel any better about the outcome. Or how about AJ getting up, then running away and/or clinging on for dear life for the last 2 rounds. Would that make us feel better for him?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:03 am 
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panday wrote:
JoeyInCali wrote:
Quote:
[
You can't say that unless you're in his situation. Unless you know the physical pain that he was going through at that time....you can't say that he lacks the heart.....

Was he more hurt than Pavlik was against Taylor in the first fight?
Let me say this again, world champions don't quit.


Pavlik was only hurt in that round that Taylor caught him(early in the fight)......It was an accumulation for Banal....Let me say it again....it's always easier for you guys to say that someone lacks the heart because it's not you who's taking the punches.....

If Banal felt that he could've continued then he would have.......but this lack of heart is just pure garbage....


It was accumulation of punches and most of them during the clinch, AJ and his team should have made adjustment
from it but El torito was successful in doing that round after round until AJ just stayed there in the corner and refuses to
stand up.

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He's (Pac) being insulted and accused of wrongdoing because he's so good. - Larry Merchant


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