Recently, I asked Brian Wilbur on his Mailbag at Ringsidereport.com regarding his opinion on the meaning of an All Time Great,etc. Please read...
QUESTION:1) Can you explain the difference, if there's any, when a fighter is labeled "All-time Great", "Legend" and "Hall of Famer" and please cite particular boxers that best embody your example? When you say "All-time Great"---are we speaking of the more outstanding company of Ali, Robinson, Louis, etc.. and not necessarily all those enshrined in Canastota? Lastly, has there been a particular boxer who was initially dismissed as having an ordinary career, yet, as time went on, his body of work was posthumously appreciated and perceived to be great...or the other way around? Who among the present great boxers are shoo-in or potential "All-time Greats"?
ANSWER (BY BRIAN WILBUR ON HIS MAILBAG AT RINGSIDEREPORT.COM,NOV. 4, 2008)1) Some people use those terms interchangeably but each term has a different meaning for me. A "legend" is any one who has made an undeniable impact on boxing and will be remembered, but did not necessarily have to be "great". Legends are made by their fans and by the people who remember them. All of the great heavyweight champions like Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey are obviously legends. But a recent example is Naseem Hamed. Even though Hamed wasn't around long enough or accomplished enough to be great or a slam dunk hall of famer, his popularity was undeniable and his legend still grows.
A "hall of famer" is the easiest definition. It is anyone in the hall of fame. A future hall of famer is anyone who will surely be in the hall of fame when he is eligible. Not everyone in the hall of fame is a great or a legend though. You can go to
http://www.ibhof.com for a list of hall of famers.
An "all time great" is the most exclusive club in my opinion. To be considered an all time great in my eyes you have to be considered one of the elite pound for pound fighters of all time. There are only about 10-15 heavyweights ever who I would consider an all time great. This generation, I would consider Oscar De La Hoya a legend and a future hall of famer but not an all time great. Floyd Mayweather had a chance for that exclusive status but he retired too early. Manny Pacquiao has a chance if he keeps up his current pace for a bit longer.
As for the second part of your questions, there are a few boxers whose reputations have grown over time. Larry Holmes was very under appreciated in his day but is finally getting props on his fine tenure as Heavyweight Champion. Pioneer boxers like Harry Greb and Sam Langford are considered two of the best pound for pound boxers of all time currently but during their time were overshadowed by other fighters like Jack Dempsey. Speaking of Dempsey, he is an example of the opposite. Dempsey was considered to be the best fighter who ever lived, and the best there ever would be. Jack was so exciting that people really inflated him. Nowadays many boxing historians have Dempsey in the latter half of the top 10 heavyweights of all time, quite a drastic change.
>>>Here's the
All Time Great List of ESPN and Ring Magazine...
50 Greatest Boxers of All-Time
What Do You Think of ESPN's Rankings?
By Andrew Eisele, About.com
May 14 2007
ESPN.com recently listed their 50 greatest boxers of all-time. The goal was not an 'all-time, mythical pound-for-pound ranking' but rather an assessment based on four criteria:
In-ring Performance
Achievements
Dominance
Mainstream Appeal
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Louis
5. Willie Pep
6. Roberto Duran
7. Benny Leonard
8. Jack Johnson
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Sam Langford
11. Joe Gans
12. Sugar Ray Leonard
13. Harry Greb
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Jimmy Wilde
16. Gene Tunney
17. Mickey Walker
19. Stanley Ketchel
20. George Foreman
21. Tony Canzoneri
22. Barney Ross
23. Jimmy McLarnin
24. Julio Cesar Chavez
25. Marcel Cerdan
26. Joe Frazier
27. Ezzard Charles
18. Archie Moore
28. Jake LaMotta
29. Sandy Saddler
30. Terry McGovern
31. Billy Conn
32. Jose Napoles
33. Ruben Olivares
34. Emile Griffith
35. Marvin Hagler
36. Eder Jofre
37. Thomas Hearns
38. Larry Holmes
39. Oscar De La Hoya
40. Evander Holyfield
41. Ted "Kid" Lewis
42. Alexis Arguello
43. Marco Antonio Barrera
44. Pernell Whitaker
45. Carlos Monzon
46. Roy Jones Jr.
47. Bernard Hopkins
48. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
49. Erik Morales
50. Mike Tyson
Ring Magazine's 80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years
By Andrew Eisele, About.com
In 2002, the writers of Ring Magazine published a ranking of the 80 best fighters of the previous 80 years. The entirely subjective nature of any list comparing fighters across different weight categories and different eras is bound to be fodder for debate. This list was no exception. See what you think ...
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Roberto Duran
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
8. Benny Leonard
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Pernell Whitaker
11. Carlos Monzon
12. Rocky Marciano
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Archie Moore
15. Sandy Saddler
16. Jack Dempsey
17. Marvin Hagler
18. Julio Cesar Chavez
19. Eder Jofre
20. Alexis Arguello
21. Barney Ross
22. Evander Holyfield
23. Ike Williams
24. Salvador Sanchez
25. George Foreman
26. Kid Gavilian
27. Larry Holmes
28. Mickey Walker
29. Ruben Olivares
30. Gene Tunney
31. **** Tiger
32. Fighting Harada
33. Emile Griffith
34. Tony Canzoneri
35. Aaron Pryor
36. Pascual Perez
37. Miguel Canto
38. Manuel Ortiz
39. Charley Burley
40. Carmen Basilio
41. Michael Spinks
42. Joe Frazier
43. Khaosai Galaxy
44. Roy Jones Jr.
45. Tiger Flowers
46. Panama Al Brown
47. Kid Chocolate
48. Joe Brown
49. Tommy Loughran
50. Bernard Hopkins
51. Felix Trinidad
52. Jake LaMotta
53. Lennox Lewis
54. Wilfredo Gomez
55. Bob Foster
56. Jose Napoles
57. Billy Conn
58. Jimmy McLarnin
59. Pancho Villa
60. Carlos Ortiz
61. Bob Montgomery
62. Freddie Miller
63. Benny Lynch
64. Beau Jack
65. Azumah Nelson
66. Eusebio Pedroza
67. Thomas Hearns
68. Wilfred Benitez
69. Antonio Cervantes
70. Ricardo Lopez
71. Sonny Liston
72. Mike Tyson
73. Vicente Saldivar
74. Gene Fullmer
75. Oscar De La Hoya
76. Carlos Zarate
77. Marcel Cerdan
78. Flash Elorde
79. Mike McCallum
80. Harold Johnson
Source: Ring Magazine (2002)
>>>>Now, the question, where does Manny Pacquiao fit in the annals of the Boxing greats?
Some jumped too soon to compare him with Henry "Homicide Hank" Armstrong coz of the similarity of their feat 70 years apart. Some even levelled Manny Pacquiao on par with Sugar Ray Robinson and Muhammad Ali who are always in the Top 3 of every All time Greats' list.
Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia.org regarding....
Sugar Ray Robinson (born Walker Smith Jr., May 3, 1921 – April 12, 1989) was a professional boxer. Frequently cited as the greatest boxer of all time, Robinson's performances at the welterweight and middleweight divisions prompted sportswriters to create "pound for pound" rankings, where they compared fighters regardless of weight. He was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1990.
Robinson was 85-0 as an amateur with 69 of those victories coming by way of knockout, 40 in the first round. He turned professional in 1940 at the age of 19 and by 1951 had a professional record of 128-1-2 with 84 knockouts. Robinson held the world welterweight title from 1946 to 1951, and won the world middleweight title in the latter year. He retired in 1952, only to come back two and a half years later and regain the middleweight title in 1955. He then became the first boxer in history to win a divisional world championship five times, a feat he accomplished by defeating Carmen Basilio in 1958 to regain the middleweight championship. Robinson was named "fighter of the year" twice: first for his performances in 1942, then nine years and over 90 fights later, for his efforts in 1951. He engaged in several multi-fight rivalries with other Hall of Fame fighters such as Jake LaMotta, Carmen Basilio, Gene Fullmer, and Carl 'Bobo' Olson. Robinson engaged in 200 pro bouts, and his professional career lasted nearly 26 years.
Robinson was named the greatest fighter of the 20th century by the Associated Press, and the greatest boxer in history by ESPN.com in 2007. The Ring magazine rated him the best pound for pound boxer of all-time in 1997, and its "Fighter of the Decade" for the 1950s. Muhammad Ali, who repeatedly called himself "The Greatest" throughout his career, ranked Robinson as the greatest boxer of all time. Other Hall of Fame boxers such as Joe Louis and Sugar Ray Leonard said the same.
Renowned for his flamboyant lifestyle outside the ring, Robinson is credited with being the originator of the modern sports "entourage". After his boxing career ended, Robinson attempted a career as an entertainer, but struggled, and lived in poverty until his death in 1989. In 2006, he was featured on a commemorative stamp by the United States Postal Service. Career Record: W 175 - KO 108 - L 19 - D 6 - NC 2
Muhammad Ali (born Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr. on January 17, 1942) is a retired American boxer and former three-time World Heavyweight Champion. To date, he remains the only man to have won the linear heavyweight championship three times (the linear title is recognized by tracing an - almost - unbroken lineage of titleholders going back over 100 years, with nearly every champion defeating the previous titleholder in the ring). Ali was also the winner of an Olympic Light-heavyweight gold medal. In 1999, Ali was crowned "Sportsman of the Century" by Sports Illustrated and the BBC.[1]
Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr., was born in Louisville, Kentucky. He was named after his father, Cassius Marcellus Clay Sr., who was named for the 19th century abolitionist and politician Cassius Clay. Ali changed his name after joining the Nation of Islam in 1964, subsequently converted to Sunni Islam in 1975 and then Sufism.[2]
Ali was known for his fighting style, which he described as "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee".[3] Throughout his career Ali made a name for himself with great handspeed, as well as swift feet and taunting tactics. While Ali was renowned for his fast, sharp out-fighting style, he also had a great chin, and displayed great courage and an ability to take a punch throughout his career. Career Record: W 56-KO 37 - L 5
--- And...
Henry Armstrong
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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For other persons named Henry Armstrong, see Henry Armstrong (disambiguation).
Henry Armstrong
Statistics
Real name Henry Melody Jackson Jr.
Nickname(s) Homicide Hank
Rated at Welterweight
Nationality Flag of the United States American
Birth date December 12, 1912(1912-12-12)
Birth place Columbus, Mississippi, U.S.
Death date October 22, 1988 (aged 75)
Death place Los Angeles, California, U.S.
Stance Orthodox
Boxing record
Total fights 180
Wins 149
Wins by KO 101
Losses 21
Draws 10
Henry Jackson Jr. (December 12, 1912 - October 22, 1988) was a world boxing champion who fought under the name Henry Armstrong.
The son of a sharecropper and America Armstrong, an Iroquois native American, Henry Jr. was a boxer who not only was a member of the exclusive group of fighters that have won boxing championships in three or more different divisions(at a time when there were fewer weight divisions than today), but also has the distinction of being the only boxer to hold three world championships at the same time. He also defended the Welterweight championship more times than any other fighter.
In 2002, Ring Magazine ranked Armstrong as the 2nd greatest fighter of the last 80 years, behind only Sugar Ray Robinson and ahead of the legendary Muhammad Ali.
>>>>There you go... Let's look closely at Henry Armstrong where Manny is often compared nowadays in the wake of his magnificent TKO win over the legendary Golden Boy Oscar Dela Hoya at Welterweight albeit for no legitimate title. That capped an amazing year after winning the WBC Jr. Lightweight and Lightweight Divisions. Three Divisions conquered in less than a year's time, two titles. Again, three divisions in one year, that is as far as the comparison goes. Manny might have legends in Marquez and Dela Hoya as victims along the way, Armstrong had Lou Ambers and Barney Ross too. Manny is oftentimes labeled as a throwback fighter because of his do or die approach, much like the boxers back then who spilled their guts out for peanuts with greater ring activity of as much as 2 fights in three months time unlike the superstars of today who only do as high as 3 business fights a year. You might say, Armstrong lost 21 fights but boy---he battled with the best contenders and champions of his era, even fighting as much as 17 fights in a year! Can you imagine Manny fighting the likes of Valero, Soto, Guzman, Campbell, Rocky Juarez, Ali Funeka or any bum prospects who call him out in a year or two? Would he still keep that winning streak at an amazing interval? I remember in THE RAGING BULL movie, (De Niro)Jake Lamotta's black eye is not yet fully healed and yet, he is already scheduled to slug it out in a few days.
There's just tooo much debate if we compare fighters of different era regarding their achievements. But we could get some factual basis or analysis why Manny is easily elevated to the zenith by his loyal fans and why a lot of critics are still hard on him regarding his rightful place, not just in the Hall of Fame, but in the very elite class of
the ALL TIME GREATS. They always thought that legendary All
Time Great of yesteryears were truly rare and special. For me, his win over the Golden Boy already sealed his ticket to the All Time Great club but to evaluate him this early as equal to Henry Armstrong when his career is not yet over is too much too soon. He still has a long way to go with his unlimited potentials. Sometimes, the beloved place in the All Time Great list is not achieved overnight. It took years or perhaps decades before Robinson, Armstrong and Ali cemented their positions. Who knows, with his already unequalled championship feats in four different weights and the manner he achieved them, Manny, with his prospects and future so bright---might dislodge even Robinson from his pedestal if he keeps his winning ways before his time is up. For now, let's just hope and pray for our National Treasure!