Pacland's Philippine Boxing Forum

Recently, I asked Brian Wilbur on his Mailbag at Ringsidereport.com regarding his opinion on the meaning of an All Time Great,etc. Please read...

QUESTION:
1) Can you explain the difference, if there's any, when a fighter is labeled "All-time Great", "Legend" and "Hall of Famer" and please cite particular boxers that best embody your example? When you say "All-time Great"---are we speaking of the more outstanding company of Ali, Robinson, Louis, etc.. and not necessarily all those enshrined in Canastota? Lastly, has there been a particular boxer who was initially dismissed as having an ordinary career, yet, as time went on, his body of work was posthumously appreciated and perceived to be great...or the other way around? Who among the present great boxers are shoo-in or potential "All-time Greats"?

ANSWER (BY BRIAN WILBUR ON HIS MAILBAG AT RINGSIDEREPORT.COM,NOV. 4, 2008)
1) Some people use those terms interchangeably but each term has a different meaning for me. A "legend" is any one who has made an undeniable impact on boxing and will be remembered, but did not necessarily have to be "great". Legends are made by their fans and by the people who remember them. All of the great heavyweight champions like Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey are obviously legends. But a recent example is Naseem Hamed. Even though Hamed wasn't around long enough or accomplished enough to be great or a slam dunk hall of famer, his popularity was undeniable and his legend still grows.

A "hall of famer" is the easiest definition. It is anyone in the hall of fame. A future hall of famer is anyone who will surely be in the hall of fame when he is eligible. Not everyone in the hall of fame is a great or a legend though. You can go to http://www.ibhof.com for a list of hall of famers.

An "all time great" is the most exclusive club in my opinion. To be considered an all time great in my eyes you have to be considered one of the elite pound for pound fighters of all time. There are only about 10-15 heavyweights ever who I would consider an all time great. This generation, I would consider Oscar De La Hoya a legend and a future hall of famer but not an all time great. Floyd Mayweather had a chance for that exclusive status but he retired too early. Manny Pacquiao has a chance if he keeps up his current pace for a bit longer.

As for the second part of your questions, there are a few boxers whose reputations have grown over time. Larry Holmes was very under appreciated in his day but is finally getting props on his fine tenure as Heavyweight Champion. Pioneer boxers like Harry Greb and Sam Langford are considered two of the best pound for pound boxers of all time currently but during their time were overshadowed by other fighters like Jack Dempsey. Speaking of Dempsey, he is an example of the opposite. Dempsey was considered to be the best fighter who ever lived, and the best there ever would be. Jack was so exciting that people really inflated him. Nowadays many boxing historians have Dempsey in the latter half of the top 10 heavyweights of all time, quite a drastic change.

>>>Here's the All Time Great List of ESPN and Ring Magazine...

50 Greatest Boxers of All-Time
What Do You Think of ESPN's Rankings?

By Andrew Eisele, About.com
May 14 2007
ESPN.com recently listed their 50 greatest boxers of all-time. The goal was not an 'all-time, mythical pound-for-pound ranking' but rather an assessment based on four criteria:

In-ring Performance
Achievements
Dominance
Mainstream Appeal

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Louis
5. Willie Pep
6. Roberto Duran
7. Benny Leonard
8. Jack Johnson
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Sam Langford
11. Joe Gans
12. Sugar Ray Leonard
13. Harry Greb
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Jimmy Wilde
16. Gene Tunney
17. Mickey Walker
19. Stanley Ketchel
20. George Foreman
21. Tony Canzoneri
22. Barney Ross
23. Jimmy McLarnin
24. Julio Cesar Chavez
25. Marcel Cerdan
26. Joe Frazier
27. Ezzard Charles
18. Archie Moore
28. Jake LaMotta
29. Sandy Saddler
30. Terry McGovern
31. Billy Conn
32. Jose Napoles
33. Ruben Olivares
34. Emile Griffith
35. Marvin Hagler
36. Eder Jofre
37. Thomas Hearns
38. Larry Holmes
39. Oscar De La Hoya
40. Evander Holyfield
41. Ted "Kid" Lewis
42. Alexis Arguello
43. Marco Antonio Barrera
44. Pernell Whitaker
45. Carlos Monzon
46. Roy Jones Jr.
47. Bernard Hopkins
48. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
49. Erik Morales
50. Mike Tyson

Ring Magazine's 80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years

By Andrew Eisele, About.com

In 2002, the writers of Ring Magazine published a ranking of the 80 best fighters of the previous 80 years. The entirely subjective nature of any list comparing fighters across different weight categories and different eras is bound to be fodder for debate. This list was no exception. See what you think ...

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Roberto Duran
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
8. Benny Leonard
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Pernell Whitaker
11. Carlos Monzon
12. Rocky Marciano
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Archie Moore
15. Sandy Saddler
16. Jack Dempsey
17. Marvin Hagler
18. Julio Cesar Chavez
19. Eder Jofre
20. Alexis Arguello
21. Barney Ross
22. Evander Holyfield
23. Ike Williams
24. Salvador Sanchez
25. George Foreman
26. Kid Gavilian
27. Larry Holmes
28. Mickey Walker
29. Ruben Olivares
30. Gene Tunney
31. **** Tiger
32. Fighting Harada
33. Emile Griffith
34. Tony Canzoneri
35. Aaron Pryor
36. Pascual Perez
37. Miguel Canto
38. Manuel Ortiz
39. Charley Burley
40. Carmen Basilio
41. Michael Spinks
42. Joe Frazier
43. Khaosai Galaxy
44. Roy Jones Jr.
45. Tiger Flowers
46. Panama Al Brown
47. Kid Chocolate
48. Joe Brown
49. Tommy Loughran
50. Bernard Hopkins
51. Felix Trinidad
52. Jake LaMotta
53. Lennox Lewis
54. Wilfredo Gomez
55. Bob Foster
56. Jose Napoles
57. Billy Conn
58. Jimmy McLarnin
59. Pancho Villa
60. Carlos Ortiz
61. Bob Montgomery
62. Freddie Miller
63. Benny Lynch
64. Beau Jack
65. Azumah Nelson
66. Eusebio Pedroza
67. Thomas Hearns
68. Wilfred Benitez
69. Antonio Cervantes
70. Ricardo Lopez
71. Sonny Liston
72. Mike Tyson
73. Vicente Saldivar
74. Gene Fullmer
75. Oscar De La Hoya
76. Carlos Zarate
77. Marcel Cerdan
78. Flash Elorde
79. Mike McCallum
80. Harold Johnson

Source: Ring Magazine (2002)

>>>>Now, the question, where does Manny Pacquiao fit in the annals of the Boxing greats?
Some jumped too soon to compare him with Henry "Homicide Hank" Armstrong coz of the similarity of their feat 70 years apart. Some even levelled Manny Pacquiao on par with Sugar Ray Robinson and Muhammad Ali who are always in the Top 3 of every All time Greats' list.

Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia.org regarding....

Sugar Ray Robinson (born Walker Smith Jr., May 3, 1921 – April 12, 1989) was a professional boxer. Frequently cited as the greatest boxer of all time, Robinson's performances at the welterweight and middleweight divisions prompted sportswriters to create "pound for pound" rankings, where they compared fighters regardless of weight. He was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1990.

Robinson was 85-0 as an amateur with 69 of those victories coming by way of knockout, 40 in the first round. He turned professional in 1940 at the age of 19 and by 1951 had a professional record of 128-1-2 with 84 knockouts. Robinson held the world welterweight title from 1946 to 1951, and won the world middleweight title in the latter year. He retired in 1952, only to come back two and a half years later and regain the middleweight title in 1955. He then became the first boxer in history to win a divisional world championship five times, a feat he accomplished by defeating Carmen Basilio in 1958 to regain the middleweight championship. Robinson was named "fighter of the year" twice: first for his performances in 1942, then nine years and over 90 fights later, for his efforts in 1951. He engaged in several multi-fight rivalries with other Hall of Fame fighters such as Jake LaMotta, Carmen Basilio, Gene Fullmer, and Carl 'Bobo' Olson. Robinson engaged in 200 pro bouts, and his professional career lasted nearly 26 years.

Robinson was named the greatest fighter of the 20th century by the Associated Press, and the greatest boxer in history by ESPN.com in 2007. The Ring magazine rated him the best pound for pound boxer of all-time in 1997, and its "Fighter of the Decade" for the 1950s. Muhammad Ali, who repeatedly called himself "The Greatest" throughout his career, ranked Robinson as the greatest boxer of all time. Other Hall of Fame boxers such as Joe Louis and Sugar Ray Leonard said the same.

Renowned for his flamboyant lifestyle outside the ring, Robinson is credited with being the originator of the modern sports "entourage". After his boxing career ended, Robinson attempted a career as an entertainer, but struggled, and lived in poverty until his death in 1989. In 2006, he was featured on a commemorative stamp by the United States Postal Service. Career Record: W 175 - KO 108 - L 19 - D 6 - NC 2



Muhammad Ali (born Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr. on January 17, 1942) is a retired American boxer and former three-time World Heavyweight Champion. To date, he remains the only man to have won the linear heavyweight championship three times (the linear title is recognized by tracing an - almost - unbroken lineage of titleholders going back over 100 years, with nearly every champion defeating the previous titleholder in the ring). Ali was also the winner of an Olympic Light-heavyweight gold medal. In 1999, Ali was crowned "Sportsman of the Century" by Sports Illustrated and the BBC.[1]

Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr., was born in Louisville, Kentucky. He was named after his father, Cassius Marcellus Clay Sr., who was named for the 19th century abolitionist and politician Cassius Clay. Ali changed his name after joining the Nation of Islam in 1964, subsequently converted to Sunni Islam in 1975 and then Sufism.[2]

Ali was known for his fighting style, which he described as "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee".[3] Throughout his career Ali made a name for himself with great handspeed, as well as swift feet and taunting tactics. While Ali was renowned for his fast, sharp out-fighting style, he also had a great chin, and displayed great courage and an ability to take a punch throughout his career. Career Record: W 56-KO 37 - L 5

--- And...

Henry Armstrong
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other persons named Henry Armstrong, see Henry Armstrong (disambiguation).
Henry Armstrong
Statistics
Real name Henry Melody Jackson Jr.
Nickname(s) Homicide Hank
Rated at Welterweight
Nationality Flag of the United States American
Birth date December 12, 1912(1912-12-12)
Birth place Columbus, Mississippi, U.S.
Death date October 22, 1988 (aged 75)
Death place Los Angeles, California, U.S.
Stance Orthodox
Boxing record
Total fights 180
Wins 149
Wins by KO 101
Losses 21
Draws 10

Henry Jackson Jr. (December 12, 1912 - October 22, 1988) was a world boxing champion who fought under the name Henry Armstrong.

The son of a sharecropper and America Armstrong, an Iroquois native American, Henry Jr. was a boxer who not only was a member of the exclusive group of fighters that have won boxing championships in three or more different divisions(at a time when there were fewer weight divisions than today), but also has the distinction of being the only boxer to hold three world championships at the same time. He also defended the Welterweight championship more times than any other fighter.

In 2002, Ring Magazine ranked Armstrong as the 2nd greatest fighter of the last 80 years, behind only Sugar Ray Robinson and ahead of the legendary Muhammad Ali.


>>>>There you go... Let's look closely at Henry Armstrong where Manny is often compared nowadays in the wake of his magnificent TKO win over the legendary Golden Boy Oscar Dela Hoya at Welterweight albeit for no legitimate title. That capped an amazing year after winning the WBC Jr. Lightweight and Lightweight Divisions. Three Divisions conquered in less than a year's time, two titles. Again, three divisions in one year, that is as far as the comparison goes. Manny might have legends in Marquez and Dela Hoya as victims along the way, Armstrong had Lou Ambers and Barney Ross too. Manny is oftentimes labeled as a throwback fighter because of his do or die approach, much like the boxers back then who spilled their guts out for peanuts with greater ring activity of as much as 2 fights in three months time unlike the superstars of today who only do as high as 3 business fights a year. You might say, Armstrong lost 21 fights but boy---he battled with the best contenders and champions of his era, even fighting as much as 17 fights in a year! Can you imagine Manny fighting the likes of Valero, Soto, Guzman, Campbell, Rocky Juarez, Ali Funeka or any bum prospects who call him out in a year or two? Would he still keep that winning streak at an amazing interval? I remember in THE RAGING BULL movie, (De Niro)Jake Lamotta's black eye is not yet fully healed and yet, he is already scheduled to slug it out in a few days.

There's just tooo much debate if we compare fighters of different era regarding their achievements. But we could get some factual basis or analysis why Manny is easily elevated to the zenith by his loyal fans and why a lot of critics are still hard on him regarding his rightful place, not just in the Hall of Fame, but in the very elite class of
the ALL TIME GREATS. They always thought that legendary All
Time Great of yesteryears were truly rare and special. For me, his win over the Golden Boy already sealed his ticket to the All Time Great club but to evaluate him this early as equal to Henry Armstrong when his career is not yet over is too much too soon. He still has a long way to go with his unlimited potentials. Sometimes, the beloved place in the All Time Great list is not achieved overnight. It took years or perhaps decades before Robinson, Armstrong and Ali cemented their positions. Who knows, with his already unequalled championship feats in four different weights and the manner he achieved them, Manny, with his prospects and future so bright---might dislodge even Robinson from his pedestal if he keeps his winning ways before his time is up. For now, let's just hope and pray for our National Treasure!

_________________
"PaiN MaKEs tHE MaN"

your thread is freaking long to lazy to read

Its more helpful to evaluate Manny's place in boxing history after looking at the real facts....

_________________
"PaiN MaKEs tHE MaN"

pacman is the all time great in the 90's and 2000's hands down

_________________
You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

More short articles here http://jcsambo.blogspot.com

Can Manny be included here soon? ---> The 10 Greatest non-Heavyweight Boxers of All Time.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/10non.html

btw, nice thread TS...

_________________
“The fight is won or lost far away from the witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road; long before I dance under those lights.” -Muhammad Ali

I'd like to share this list of Top Five All Time Boxing Greats from Christopher Falvello of BLEACHERREPORT.COM. PACFANS REJOICE!!!

Top Five Boxing Greats of All Time

by Christopher Falvello (Contributor)

I recently read an article on this site which rated the five greatest fighters of all time according to standards that differ somewhat from traditional ideas.

The biggest difference was that such things as popularity, social significance, and meaning to the sport counted as much if not more than skill, physical ability, and ring accomplishment.

I have already rated my top 10 pound for pound in another article, but I thought it would be fun to rate the five most important fighters of all time, so here are my picks:



5. Manny Pacquiao

In an era of over commercialization, fading spotlight, and encroachment from MMA, Manny Pacquiao gives us all hope. The most exciting fighter since Dempsey, Pac Man has captivated the entire sport.

You will be hard-pressed to find a fan who doesn’t like Pacquiao (aside from perhaps the Mexican fanbase who have had the displeasure of watching one national hero after another fall to the Filipino dynamo). Today, Manny Pacquiao is simply the reason to love boxing.



4. Sugar Ray Robinson

Pound for pound, Sugar was the greatest who ever lived. In boxing’s golden era he was one of the most visible and famous fighters.

His ring accomplishments are too great to number here. Suffice it to say that for 10 years he was a top draw in the sport and inspired a generation to put on the gloves (including a loudmouth kid from Louisville named Cassius Clay).



3. Muhammad Ali

Ali’s initial reign was a full 10 years after the end of boxing’s golden era, and at that time he was exactly what the sport needed.

After Marciano retired he was succeeded by three champions of lesser ability who did nothing to stimulate interest in the sport. In 1964, boxing’s prayers were answered when Cassius Clay forced Sonny Liston to quit on his stool and the most flamboyant, crazy, and entertaining championship in the sport was launched.

Ali was soundly hated by most of America in the 1960s before earning the love and respect he deserved in the 1970s. But love him or hate him, for 15 years no one packed them in and inspired new generations like Ali.



2. Joe Louis

Between 1928 and 1937 there were five heavyweight champions that have been best described as “Send in the Clowns.” By 1935, boxing was in dire straits. The depression had lessened gates and the lack of a great champion to lead the sport was telling.

In 1935, a young black man from Detroit burst onto the national scene by knocking out Primo Carnera, thus ushering in the golden age of boxing. Louis soon became the first black champion since Jack Johnson, and also became an ambassador of the culture, carrying himself with respect, courtesy, and, most of all, dignity.

Louis may have had to play an Uncle Tom to get his shot, but in so doing he not only broke the colored line, but shattered it. With Louis’ ascension, the term “great white hope” became nothing more than a monetary dream.

His contributions to America during WWII also make him a social force and cultural hero of almost unparalleled magnitude. Simply put, Joe Louis saved boxing and became the single most important black athlete in the 20th century. Without Louis there would never have been a Jackie Robinson or a Muhammad Ali.



1. Jack Dempsey

Within the context of his era, Dempsey was the most popular athlete in American history. He routinely captured four column headlines on the front page of newspapers across the country and packed hundreds of thousands into stadiums to see him.

Nothing short of a folk hero and cultural icon, Dempsey proved how big boxing could be. He also came along at a precarious time in boxing’s history. For the first two decades of the 20th century the legality of boxing was questionable at best and it was not uncommon to see boxers jailed for being part of the illicit activity.

Dempsey’s popularity, and earning potential, helped persuade the New York State Athletic commission to adopt the revised Marquees of Queensberry rules and make boxing legal once and for all. Dempsey and his national appeal saved the sport, and without him it may not exist today.



Well there they are, my five most important in the history of the sport. Agree or disagree all you want. After all, lists like these are meant to spark discussion.

_________________
"PaiN MaKEs tHE MaN"

_________________
Iesous Christos Theou hUios Soter.

" I search history in vain to find the equal to Jesus Christ. " - Napoleon Bonaparte

" In the beginning, God made the heavens and the earth... now everything else is Made in China. "

Well, it would save you a lot of time and earn a little knowledge if you try...Perhaps it will help you understand the current debates regarding Manny's place in the annals of the All Time Greats. Give it a try bro...

_________________
"PaiN MaKEs tHE MaN"

Thanks bro. I think Manny is now a bonafide All Time Great and some writers already have him in their Top 100 Boxing Greats. He would definitely barge in the Top 20 if he beats Hatton. Plus winning the 2008 Fighter of the Year and Fighter of the Decade, where he is the frontrunner , can further elevate his status and resume.

_________________
"PaiN MaKEs tHE MaN"

Any opinion?

_________________
"PaiN MaKEs tHE MaN"

if delahoya is 39th and barrera is 43rd... i think pacquiao is already on those range if we are talking about the present... what if he beat hatton and PBF next year... i think he can be listed higher and probably within the range of 5th to 15th...

_________________
langhiya!

I consider him in the 15th-20th rank.

If he will beat Hatton and PBF, surely among top 10.

HOORAY!!!

after he domlished Hitman. Where is Pacman now in the list of all time great boxer?