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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:47 pm 
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baeaywan wrote:
after he domlished Hitman. Where is Pacman now in the list of all time great boxer?


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


I made that assessment after his win over Oscar. His recent win over Hatton is another landmark achievement to further enhance his already outstanding legacy. That being the only 4th time lineal champ and the second boxer to conquer 6 division titles.
I know we are all still in a state of euphoria after seeing that stunning knockout for the ages. However, i still stand by my words that we should only evaluate him until the final reckoning when he decides to leave the sport. His place in the all-time great is already secured, where exactly in particular remains to be seen. As i have said, Robinson, Ali, Armstrong, Leonard, Duran, etc. took years to rightfully claim their rank among the greatest and it was not solidified overnight.
I'm one of the many who believes that Manny's highest peak is still to come. He has at least two more great fights left in him. I used to have doubts how he would fare against Floyd as i expressed in my previous thread because i thought then that his slick and counter punching style would give Pacman a lot of trouble the way Marquez did.
What transpired last Sunday spoke volumes of how incredible Manny has evolved in his
skills and power at a higher weight. Now, I don't know how Floyd is going to box circles around him until the last bell because somewhere along the way Manny is going to engaged him to make a real fight out of it.

For the sake of personal opinion if Manny decides to quit now and rest on his laurels. I would place him in the TOP 15 ATG but i won't be too certain how long he would stay there because i'm pretty damn sure, with the passage of time, his stock will rise and history will be kind because the bar he set for himself is incredibly high for another phenom to even duplicate.

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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 6:14 pm 
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Pacquaio is on TOP 3 i think!

...and rising!!!! 8)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:02 pm 
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felomino_antonio wrote:
Pacquaio is on TOP 3 i think!

...and rising!!!! 8)



at this point i rank him 7th.. but that is just me..
SRR>HA>JL>MA>RD>WP>MP (there you go)..

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:38 pm 
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Tristan Cruz wrote:
felomino_antonio wrote:
Pacquaio is on TOP 3 i think!

...and rising!!!! 8)



at this point i rank him 7th.. but that is just me..
SRR>HA>JL>MA>RD>WP>MP (there you go)..


This thread was prior to Hatton's fight or prior to his 6th weight division title. I'm not too sure where to exactly put him pending the Cotto fight but is definitely near Sugar Ray Leonard or not less than Top 15 - consistent with my previous post a few months ago.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:05 pm 
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TS, make up your mind, is manny in the league of ali, armstrong and louis, or outside of the top 10 in the league of wilde and greb?......


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:25 pm 
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Duncan wrote:
TS, make up your mind, is manny in the league of ali, armstrong and louis, or outside of the top 10 in the league of wilde and greb?......


Outside of Top 10 but no lower than no. 15.

He's not yet in the league of SRR, Armstrong and Ali but he's closing in on Sugar Ray Leonard who is presently at no. 9. We're talking here of The Ring Magazine ATG list. Greb and Benny Leonard are a bit high on the list I think. Although their accomplishments speak for themselves, backed up by American boxing experts, however, the unavailability of their clips that could concretely substantiate their solid positions should be open to reevaluation. Roberto Duran at no. 5 is still ranked too high IMO. Same goes to Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore at nos. 13 and 14. Clearly, romanticizing too high the American boxing heritage.

I'm dying to see their updated list.

Please visit this link.... viewtopic.php?f=5&t=140821&hilit=

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:45 pm 
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helven wrote:
Tristan Cruz wrote:
felomino_antonio wrote:
Pacquaio is on TOP 3 i think!

...and rising!!!! 8)



at this point i rank him 7th.. but that is just me..
SRR>HA>JL>MA>RD>WP>MP (there you go)..


This thread was prior to Hatton's fight or prior to his 6th weight division title. I'm not too sure where to exactly put him pending the Cotto fight but is definitely near Sugar Ray Leonard or not less than Top 15 - consistent with my previous post a few months ago.


i agree w/ you on Pac being near w/ SRL.. The only eye-sore on SRL's greatness is his quantity of fights.. But if you'll ask for quality, boy he can brag, he fought the best out there in a time where padding one's record is starting to gain popularity.. Sugar's legacy would have been greater than where he's lagacy stands today if not for the eye problem. his inactiveness in the early 80's made his resume weaker than those of Roberto Duran, Louis, & Pep.. And since greatness is a measured by facts and results not potentials. i think Pac already beat SRL by a hair-strand.. though i'd be okay to call it even.. But Pac needs 5-7 emphatic wins w/o loosing one; to guys w/ the likes of; J. Guzman, Tim Bradley, Floyd Mayweather Jr. & even E. Valero, before i call him better than the greatest Featherweight of all time Willie Pep, which by then i'd rate him 6th..

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:51 pm 
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I dont trust these american boxing writers and 'historians'. Though it appears the US media is favoring pacquiao with their 'nice' articles coz mannny is the cash cow now, in time and after hes done fighting, they will write him off and discredit his achievements. They would of course protect their american ATGs, and as you can see, they're now including latinos (with the espn's selection of MAB, EM plus chavez of course) and slowly eliminating asians (villa, elorde, harada, galaxy) as time goes by. Thats why ngayon pa lang eh lets protect manny's legacy in boxing, debates and discussions like these in every forums in the Internet and other means would help. To me, manny has already surpassed duran, and he's in the league of armstrong. If he beats cotto and another welter (mosley or PBF), he overtakes armstrong. If he keeps on winning until he retires, who knows he could catch up with your SRR.....


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:56 pm 
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Tristan Cruz wrote:
helven wrote:
Tristan Cruz wrote:

at this point i rank him 7th.. but that is just me..
SRR>HA>JL>MA>RD>WP>MP (there you go)..


This thread was prior to Hatton's fight or prior to his 6th weight division title. I'm not too sure where to exactly put him pending the Cotto fight but is definitely near Sugar Ray Leonard or not less than Top 15 - consistent with my previous post a few months ago.


i agree w/ you on Pac being near w/ SRL.. The only eye-sore on SRL's greatness is his quantity of fights.. But if you'll ask for quality, boy he can brag, he fought the best out there in a time where padding one's record is starting to gain popularity.. Sugar's legacy would have been greater than where he's lagacy stands today if not for the eye problem. his inactiveness in the early 80's made his resume weaker than those of Roberto Duran, Louis, & Pep.. And since greatness is a measured by facts and results not potentials. i think Pac already beat SRL by a hair-strand.. though i'd be okay to call it even.. But Pac needs 5-7 emphatic wins w/o loosing one; to guys w/ the likes of; J. Guzman, Tim Bradley, Floyd Mayweather Jr. & even E. Valero, before i call him better than the greatest Featherweight of all time Willie Pep, which by then i'd rate him 6th..


SRL, despite being robbed of his prime years due to a detached retina, defeated the greatest ATG's of his time - Roberto Duran, Tommy Hearns and Marvin Hagler. Plus another great fighter in Wilfredo Benitez. His limited but outstanding resume' was further boosted by his 5 weight division conquest (although the last one(or two) was subjected to controversy).

Like i said somewhere in this thread, Manny's stock will rise and history will be kind to him in the end.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:05 pm 
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Duncan wrote:
I dont trust these american boxing writers and 'historians'. Though it appears the US media is favoring pacquiao with their 'nice' articles coz mannny is the cash cow now, in time and after hes done fighting, they will write him off and discredit his achievements. They would of course protect their american ATGs, and as you can see, they're now including latinos (with the espn's selection of MAB, EM plus chavez of course) and slowly eliminating asians (villa, elorde, harada, galaxy) as time goes by. Thats why ngayon pa lang eh lets protect manny's legacy in boxing, debates and discussions like these in every forums in the Internet and other means would help. To me, manny has already surpassed duran, and he's in the league of armstrong. If he beats cotto and another welter (mosley or PBF), he overtakes armstrong. If he keeps on winning until he retires, who knows he could catch up with your SRR.....


We could make a strong case once Manny beats Cotto for his 7th division title for inclusion at Top 10. The reason i'm not too sure where to put him because it's about time we reevaluate those names( Greb, Benny Leonard, Charles, Moore, etc.). They were clearly protected. I'm not questioning their greatness but I think they were ranked either a little bit or too high on the list.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:08 pm 
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Duncan wrote:
I dont trust these american boxing writers and 'historians'. Though it appears the US media is favoring pacquiao with their 'nice' articles coz mannny is the cash cow now, in time and after hes done fighting, they will write him off and discredit his achievements. They would of course protect their american ATGs, and as you can see, they're now including latinos (with the espn's selection of MAB, EM plus chavez of course) and slowly eliminating asians (villa, elorde, harada, galaxy) as time goes by. Thats why ngayon pa lang eh lets protect manny's legacy in boxing, debates and discussions like these in every forums in the Internet and other means would help. To me, manny has already surpassed duran, and he's in the league of armstrong. If he beats cotto and another welter (mosley or PBF), he overtakes armstrong. If he keeps on winning until he retires, who knows he could catch up with your SRR.....


likewise here.. but their racial discredit in boxing does not only apply among Asians but Euro's as well.. they barely say the greatness of Chris Eubank, Nigel Benn, Joe Calzaghe, Gustav Scholz, Fabrice Tiozzo, Dariusz Michalczewski, Jean-Marc Renard, Nino Benvenuti, Yuri Arbachakov, Javier Castillejo, Johnny Bredahl etc.. and ofcourse our Asian counterparts such as; Chris John, Masamori Tokuyama, Hiroyuki Ebihara, Pone Kingpetch, Jung-Koo Chang, Ben Villaflor and Little Dado.. i think half of them if not all are HOF material IMO.. but i think few of them if not all are not ATG listers.. that is why i already put Pac ahead of some unknown ATG like Benny Leonard, Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore .

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:13 pm 
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Manny has already surpassed SLR.

SLR beat the smaller duran, 2-1 in a trilogy with one infamous no mas because duran no longer wanted to fight this clown. SLR also danced away from hagler, and left the boxing world frustrated with the match. SLR also beat hearns, yes but some critics thought the ref prematurely stopped the fight. He drew in the rematch but many saw it for hearns after dropping SLR twice.

Whereas manny also fought the greatest featherweights of his time (some call it the golden age of featherweights). He massacred MAB in their first fight, and dominated him in the rematch. Pacquiao lost the first bout vs EM (with so many distractions like the gloves, tax issues, promoter, alright no excuses he lost it) but in close UD then demolished him the next 2 fights. Pacquiao drew with JMM and barely beat him in the rematch (but he scored 4 KDs, how about SLR did he ever score one over his toughest opponent in hagler?).

Now, like SLR also, pacquiao is fighting bigger men, but again in more convincing and exciting fashion.


Last edited by Duncan on Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:18 pm 
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Tristan Cruz wrote:
Duncan wrote:
I dont trust these american boxing writers and 'historians'. Though it appears the US media is favoring pacquiao with their 'nice' articles coz mannny is the cash cow now, in time and after hes done fighting, they will write him off and discredit his achievements. They would of course protect their american ATGs, and as you can see, they're now including latinos (with the espn's selection of MAB, EM plus chavez of course) and slowly eliminating asians (villa, elorde, harada, galaxy) as time goes by. Thats why ngayon pa lang eh lets protect manny's legacy in boxing, debates and discussions like these in every forums in the Internet and other means would help. To me, manny has already surpassed duran, and he's in the league of armstrong. If he beats cotto and another welter (mosley or PBF), he overtakes armstrong. If he keeps on winning until he retires, who knows he could catch up with your SRR.....


likewise here.. but their racial discredit in boxing does not only apply among Asians but Euro's as well.. they barely say the greatness of Chris Eubank, Nigel Benn, Joe Calzaghe, Gustav Scholz, Fabrice Tiozzo, Dariusz Michalczewski, Jean-Marc Renard, Nino Benvenuti, Yuri Arbachakov, Javier Castillejo, Johnny Bredahl etc.. and ofcourse our Asian counterparts such as; Chris John, Masamori Tokuyama, Hiroyuki Ebihara, Pone Kingpetch, Jung-Koo Chang, Ben Villaflor and Little Dado.. i think half of them if not all are HOF material IMO.. but i think few of them if not all are not ATG listers.. that is why i already put Pac ahead of some unknown ATG like Benny Leonard, Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore .


few HOF but defintely not ATGs. i dont think europeans are good at boxing.....


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:19 pm 
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Tristan Cruz wrote:
Duncan wrote:
I dont trust these american boxing writers and 'historians'. Though it appears the US media is favoring pacquiao with their 'nice' articles coz mannny is the cash cow now, in time and after hes done fighting, they will write him off and discredit his achievements. They would of course protect their american ATGs, and as you can see, they're now including latinos (with the espn's selection of MAB, EM plus chavez of course) and slowly eliminating asians (villa, elorde, harada, galaxy) as time goes by. Thats why ngayon pa lang eh lets protect manny's legacy in boxing, debates and discussions like these in every forums in the Internet and other means would help. To me, manny has already surpassed duran, and he's in the league of armstrong. If he beats cotto and another welter (mosley or PBF), he overtakes armstrong. If he keeps on winning until he retires, who knows he could catch up with your SRR.....


likewise here.. but their racial discredit in boxing does not only apply among Asians but Euro's as well.. they barely say the greatness of Chris Eubank, Nigel Benn, Joe Calzaghe, Gustav Scholz, Fabrice Tiozzo, Dariusz Michalczewski, Jean-Marc Renard, Nino Benvenuti, Yuri Arbachakov, Javier Castillejo, Johnny Bredahl etc.. and ofcourse our Asian counterparts such as; Chris John, Masamori Tokuyama, Hiroyuki Ebihara, Pone Kingpetch, Jung-Koo Chang, Ben Villaflor and Little Dado.. i think half of them if not all are HOF material IMO.. but i think few of them if not all are not ATG listers.. that is why i already put Pac ahead of some unknown ATG like Benny Leonard, Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore .


The only reason why it's taking them too long, or I've never heard of any attempt to revise the list because a lot of questions will be raised once they flood it again with relics from the past. It's all there in my other thread, questioning the validity of the ATG list. But there are names that truly deserve to be there, Willie Pepp, Joe Louis, Armstrong, SRR, Ali.

I want you to look at Pernell Whitaker's achievement and resume'. He is currently at No. 10. No doubt a great fighter but his worth is inflated too high and too soon.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:24 pm 
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Duncan wrote:
Manny has already surpassed SLR.
SLR beat the smaller duran in a trilogy with one infamous no mas because duran no longer wanted to fight this clown. SLR also danced away from hagler, and left the boxing world frustrated with the match. SLR also beat hearns, yes but some critics thought the ref prematurely stopped the fight. He drew in the rematch but many saw it for hearns after dropping SLR twice.

Whereas manny also fought the greatest featherweights of his time (some call it the golden age of featherweights). He massacred MAB in their first fight, and dominated him in the rematch. Pacquiao lost the first bout vs EM (with so many distractions like the gloves, tax issues, promoter, alright no excuses he lost it) but in close UD then demolished him the next 2 fights. Pacquiao drew with JMM and barely beat him in the rematch.

Now, like SLR also, pacquiao is fighting bigger men, but again in more convincing and exciting fashion.


i'm with you on this one.. but like i said Pac only surpassed SLR by a thin hair line.. his position is still not cemented.. but with Pac's scheduled fight w/ Cotto, a win will make his resume better by a few steps ahead of SRL.. who knows Packy next opponent is Floyd.. a win against Floyd would surely left a scar to every american writer who'll protect their legacies..

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