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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:28 am 
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If he is American - black or white, Americans will be declaring Manny Pacquiao - the greatest boxer of all time. Creeping discrimination is still prevalent in the USA

http://philboxing.com/news/story-142310.html

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:35 am 
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Underrated?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:03 pm 
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Well, I'll just say I am lucky to have witnessed a Filipino boxer that is one of the All Time Greats ...


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:36 pm 
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He's been KO'd 3 times.

Sugar Ray Robinson and Ali?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:21 pm 
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I think Pacman should be given credit for competing for so long at welterweight even if he could still make junior welterweight, until now, and all the while achieving what he has achieved.

In that sense yes I think he is underrated, but years from now boxing historians will look back on his career and weigh all of these things in a quieter atmosphere, hopefully without the biases and prejudices, the hoopla and the hate, and evaluate his career on its true merits and how it compares stacked against history's all-timers.

Some respected voices in boxing say Floyd edges him, still others say Manny should be regarded more highly. Either way, whoever eventually comes out on top among the two may be considered the best of this general era. I think it is more prudent to hold judgment until enough time has passed.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:48 pm 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
He's been KO'd 3 times.

Sugar Ray Robinson and Ali?


How many times he's been KOed doesn't really matter, especially in the future... That "we can't compare him to old timers" mentality is just a psychological trigger within ourselves as to not disrespect old timers and legends...

Someday, another ATG-caliber boxer will emerge and people will say: "You can't compare him to the likes of Pacquiao or Mayweather." even if the boxer can clearly be aligned with them...

The.Equalizer wrote:
I think Pacman should be given credit for competing for so long at welterweight even if he could still make junior welterweight, until now, and all the while achieving what he has achieved.

In that sense yes I think he is underrated, but years from now boxing historians will look back on his career and weigh all of these things in a quieter atmosphere, hopefully without the biases and prejudices, the hoopla and the hate, and evaluate his career on its true merits and how it compares stacked against history's all-timers.

Some respected voices in boxing say Floyd edges him, still others say Manny should be regarded more highly. Either way, whoever eventually comes out on top among the two may be considered the best of this general era. I think it is more prudent to hold judgment until enough time has passed.


That argument depends on what kind of list or who listed (which kind of boxer he/she prefers) the list... If we're talking about all-time P4P great, Pacquiao edges AXF... If we're talking about who's the better boxer, AXF edges Pacquiao...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:44 pm 
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thedarkdragon11 wrote:
JoeyInCali wrote:
He's been KO'd 3 times.

Sugar Ray Robinson and Ali?


How many times he's been KOed doesn't really matter, especially in the future... That "we can't compare him to old timers" mentality is just a psychological trigger within ourselves as to not disrespect old timers and legends...

Someday, another ATG-caliber boxer will emerge and people will say: "You can't compare him to the likes of Pacquiao or Mayweather." even if the boxer can clearly be aligned with them...

The.Equalizer wrote:
I think Pacman should be given credit for competing for so long at welterweight even if he could still make junior welterweight, until now, and all the while achieving what he has achieved.

In that sense yes I think he is underrated, but years from now boxing historians will look back on his career and weigh all of these things in a quieter atmosphere, hopefully without the biases and prejudices, the hoopla and the hate, and evaluate his career on its true merits and how it compares stacked against history's all-timers.

Some respected voices in boxing say Floyd edges him, still others say Manny should be regarded more highly. Either way, whoever eventually comes out on top among the two may be considered the best of this general era. I think it is more prudent to hold judgment until enough time has passed.


That argument depends on what kind of list or who listed (which kind of boxer he/she prefers) the list... If we're talking about all-time P4P great, Pacquiao edges AXF... If we're talking about who's the better boxer, AXF edges Pacquiao...

Of course, it does .
Sugar Ray Robinson fought nearly 200 times and he wasn't knocked out 3 times.
Are you going to argue Pac is THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME ?

How is Pac underrated when he won Fighter of the Decade ? Fighter of the Year 3 times.
There have been a ton of greats who never won FOY .
Fighters like Eder Jofre and Duilio Loi are what I consider underrated.


To the OP. It doesn't matter if Pac is black or white . Quit the race baiting .
Pac was voted by the BWAA as FOTD over Floyd .
Nobody is going to argue he is the greatest of all time b/c he was KO'd 3 times and has lost so many fights already.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:52 pm 
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At Joey...

Other than what you said, what makes you think Sugar Ray Robinson is still the greatest of all time?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:08 pm 
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Junorz wrote:
At Joey...

Other than what you said, what makes you think Sugar Ray Robinson is still the greatest of all time?

Long list of hall of famer victims.
Middleweight champ 5 times during the time when there were only 8 titles .
Was 100+ and 1 one time. Only loss was to Jake LaMotta who had 14 lbs on him .

Stopped LaMotta and Fullmer . Ray was almost 10 years older than Fullmer. Fullmer was never knocked down before that .
Stopped LaMotta. The greatest chin ever.
Stopped Graziano. Beat Basilio, Zivic, Gavilan and Henry Armstrong among them.

He was at 129-1-2 when he lost to Randy Turpin. He ko'd him in the rematch.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:12 pm 
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What about Rocky Balboa who KO'd Ivan Drago....IN RUSSIA !!!

:shock:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:17 pm 
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JCOOL2329 wrote:
What about Rocky Balboa who KO'd Ivan Drago....IN RUSSIA !!!

:shock:

Drago took a dive.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:43 pm 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
Junorz wrote:
At Joey...

Other than what you said, what makes you think Sugar Ray Robinson is still the greatest of all time?

Long list of hall of famer victims.
Middleweight champ 5 times during the time when there were only 8 titles .
Was 100+ and 1 one time. Only loss was to Jake LaMotta who had 14 lbs on him .

Stopped LaMotta and Fullmer . Ray was almost 10 years older than Fullmer. Fullmer was never knocked down before that .
Stopped LaMotta. The greatest chin ever.
Stopped Graziano. Beat Basilio, Zivic, Gavilan and Henry Armstrong among them.


Truth is i’ve already read that before, i just want to read it again your reflection of what others(American writers and boxers)are saying.

We all know that Armstrong was shot when he fought Sugar Ray and Fritzie Zivic, a dirty fighter with 65 losses in the Hall of Fame? That is just wow. I thought you were gonna say at some point, Sugar was 72-1 before he lost to Lamotta. But did you happen to look at his record? Did you carefully examine the record of fighters he beat? In his prime at 72-1, he beat 40 boxers with over 10 losses, at least 15 with over 20 losses, no less than 10 with over 30 losses, 2 with 40 losses and 1 with 55 losses. So you mentioned 100-1, did you know he still fought boxers with 22,25,28, 29, 31,42 and 46 losses after capturing his world title? And beat 3 fighters who just debuted?!!!

I used to believe Sugar Ray was the greatest but who were Gavilan, a light puncher, Lamotta, a crude brawler, compared to Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Foster and the great fighters Ali beat? Fullmer was the best boxer whom Sugar Ray fought and he avenged his brutal knockout loss with 2 wins.

I’m not saying Pacquiao is the greatest but i believe Sugar Ray’s position at the top is now debatable. 200 wins? I don’t know how many of those were elite boxers and bums. In today’s era, we could easily criticize Floyd of cherrypicking, or Pacquiao for fighting Broner. Sugar Ray still fought bums after he recaptured his welterweight and middleweight titles. Now, It’s a mortal sin to fight a boxer with over 10 losses after becoming pound for pound number one. So i would say Sugar Ray’s record is padded and his contemporary, mostly in the Hall of Fame, because Americans and historians like Bert Sugar and Hank kaplan, etc loved to romanticize the bygone era and honor their prizedfighters.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:44 pm 
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edroland wrote:
If he is American - black or white, Americans will be declaring Manny Pacquiao - the greatest boxer of all time. Creeping discrimination is still prevalent in the USA

http://philboxing.com/news/story-142310.html

Henry Armstrong won 3/8 of the available world titles then.
WAS ROBBED AT 160 against Garcia.

There were no JUNIOR divisions when Armstrong won his belts.
Armstrong defended the welter belt NINETEEN TIMES.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:52 pm 
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Junorz wrote:
JoeyInCali wrote:
Junorz wrote:
At Joey...

Other than what you said, what makes you think Sugar Ray Robinson is still the greatest of all time?

Long list of hall of famer victims.
Middleweight champ 5 times during the time when there were only 8 titles .
Was 100+ and 1 one time. Only loss was to Jake LaMotta who had 14 lbs on him .

Stopped LaMotta and Fullmer . Ray was almost 10 years older than Fullmer. Fullmer was never knocked down before that .
Stopped LaMotta. The greatest chin ever.
Stopped Graziano. Beat Basilio, Zivic, Gavilan and Henry Armstrong among them.


Truth is i’ve already read that before, i just want to read it again your reflection of what others(American writers and boxers)are saying.

We all know that Armstrong was shot when he fought Sugar Ray and Fritzie Zivic, a dirty fighter with 65 losses in the Hall of Fame? That is just wow. I thought you were gonna say at some point, Sugar was 72-1 before he lost to Lamotta. But did you happen to look at his record? Did you carefully examine the record of fighters he beat? In his prime at 72-1, he beat 40 boxers with over 10 losses, at least 15 with over 20 losses, no less than 10 with over 30 losses, 2 with 40 losses and 1 with 55 losses. So you mentioned 100-1, did you know he still fought boxers with 22,25,28, 29, 31,42 and 46 losses after capturing his world title? And beat 3 fighters who just debuted?!!!

I used to believe Sugar Ray was the greatest but who were Gavilan, a light puncher, Lamotta, a crude brawler, compared to Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Foster and the great fighters Ali beat? Fullmer was the best boxer whom Sugar Ray fought and he avenged his brutal knockout loss with 2 wins.

I’m not saying Pacquiao is the greatest but i believe Sugar Ray’s position at the top is now debatable. 200 wins? I don’t know how many of those were elite boxers and bums. In today’s era, we could easily criticize Floyd of cherrypicking, or Pacquiao for fighting Broner. Sugar Ray still fought bums after he recaptured his welterweight and middleweight titles. Now, It’s a mortal sin to fight a boxer with over 10 losses after becoming pound for pound number one. So i would say Sugar Ray’s record is padded and his contemporary, mostly in the Hall of Fame, because Americans and historians like Bert Sugar and Hank kaplan, etc loved to romanticize the bygone era and honor their prizedfighters.

Well, if you forget their records and just watch their fights in their prime, I say Sugar Ray was the best there was.

Sure, he fought bums. But, he was not KO'd by a bum. Pac was .
Ali was knocked down by a nobody and was almost KO'd by Cooper ( cheating by Dundee saved him ).
Ali fought in one division. Ray started as a lightweight.
Even Ali said Ray was the P4P best.
Ali never KO'd any hall of famer with one punch. Ray's left hook was literally deadly .

Boxers with 10 losses would be bums today. The competition is too weak.
Back in depression and post-depression era, there were THOUSANDS of boxing gyms.
Boxing was the NUMBER ONE PAYING sport. More than baseball, football and basketball.
Ali made so much money, Jim Brown wanted to box . Until Ali showed him he couldn't be hit by Brown.
There were bums, but you were liable to lose too b/c there were a lot of good ones too and losing is part of boxing .
Maidana almost beat Floyd. And Maidana was already a left-over then.
Sh8 happens in boxing.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:23 pm 
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If you try to filter Sugar Ray’s real good fights with tough opposition, you would be lucky to get 60. Once Pacquiao, even Floyd for that matter, reached that certain star status, they never looked back. No promoter would dare to match them with bums and losers. Sugar Ray had that privilige, to gravitate around 3 bums and 1 elite, for as long as he wanted.

I expect you to convince me that i was wrong about Robinson’s conquest but when you said, forget about their records just watch their fights in their prime. You know that is a very weak argument. If they were that good, they would have a few losses in their prime. Watching them in their prime would only convince mo more that Robinson was shouders above his contemporary in terms of technique and skills. Yet he was still beaten by short sluggers like Lamotta, Basilio and Fullmer who were just as tall as Pacquiao. Today, any skilled boxer, except Floyd, could not say he’s more technically brilliant than others. Manny can be beaten by a supreme counter puncher...it’s just a matter of time before we see Crawford and Spence meet their match. Robinson did not only enjoy huge advantage in height and reach, he was always the favorite in his fights. It’s not his fault though that there was nobody had skills close to his in his time. It was not his fault that Ali’s generation had better fighters in his prime. Ali was underdog in both times he fought Foreman and Frazier. Robinson was always favored to win even when he challenged Maxim for light heavyweight title.

Those thousands of gyms in Robinson’s era would have produced skilled boxers like him. But the number of gyms didn’t translate to tougher competition. And most of Robinson’s opponents were tied to mobs who controlled the number one paying sport. Though they could not get through Robinson because he was already a big star,through his opponents- they manipulated the outcome of the odds. Fusari made it to the last round with Robinson in what many believed a rigged fight.


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