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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:30 pm 
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Also, nobody gave Ali a chance against Liston.

Was Robinson ever in the same situation?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:03 pm 
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Junorz wrote:
Also, nobody gave Ali a chance against Liston.

Was Robinson ever in the same situation?

He was some 9 years older than Fulmer.
Was considered a has been.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:19 pm 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
Junorz wrote:
Also, nobody gave Ali a chance against Liston.

Was Robinson ever in the same situation?

He was some 9 years older than Fulmer.
Was considered a has been.


Well, Fullmer was just a 3-1 favorite or slightly higher.
Liston was -800 or at least 8-1 favorite over Ali.

What's more amazing about Robinson's record, his wins over 3 noobs making their pro debut registered on boxrec as, what else, WINS! Duran's exhibition matches after dominating the lightweight division with 1 or 2-win noobs also registered as wins. Good for them, good for their inflated record. I say they are just as farcical as Floyd's win over a Jap MMA artist fought under boxing rules. But Floyd's win didn't count as one. See how generous they were during the so-called golden era?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:27 pm 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
thedarkdragon11 wrote:
JoeyInCali wrote:
He's been KO'd 3 times.

Sugar Ray Robinson and Ali?


How many times he's been KOed doesn't really matter, especially in the future... That "we can't compare him to old timers" mentality is just a psychological trigger within ourselves as to not disrespect old timers and legends...

Someday, another ATG-caliber boxer will emerge and people will say: "You can't compare him to the likes of Pacquiao or Mayweather." even if the boxer can clearly be aligned with them...

The.Equalizer wrote:
I think Pacman should be given credit for competing for so long at welterweight even if he could still make junior welterweight, until now, and all the while achieving what he has achieved.

In that sense yes I think he is underrated, but years from now boxing historians will look back on his career and weigh all of these things in a quieter atmosphere, hopefully without the biases and prejudices, the hoopla and the hate, and evaluate his career on its true merits and how it compares stacked against history's all-timers.

Some respected voices in boxing say Floyd edges him, still others say Manny should be regarded more highly. Either way, whoever eventually comes out on top among the two may be considered the best of this general era. I think it is more prudent to hold judgment until enough time has passed.


That argument depends on what kind of list or who listed (which kind of boxer he/she prefers) the list... If we're talking about all-time P4P great, Pacquiao edges AXF... If we're talking about who's the better boxer, AXF edges Pacquiao...

Of course, it does .
Sugar Ray Robinson fought nearly 200 times and he wasn't knocked out 3 times.
Are you going to argue Pac is THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME ?

How is Pac underrated when he won Fighter of the Decade ? Fighter of the Year 3 times.
There have been a ton of greats who never won FOY .
Fighters like Eder Jofre and Duilio Loi are what I consider underrated.


To the OP. It doesn't matter if Pac is black or white . Quit the race baiting .
Pac was voted by the BWAA as FOTD over Floyd .
Nobody is going to argue he is the greatest of all time b/c he was KO'd 3 times and has lost so many fights already.


He's definitely up close to top, but clearly not the #1 guy of ATGs... And no, I don't think he's underrated...

SRR lost so many times, many of them were against bums... But that doesn't matter... Same with Pacquiao, how he lost those 7 fights doesn't matter...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:34 pm 
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Do note that most 1st-half of the 20th century legends fought so many bums and many of those bums are first timers in boxing... Check their records, there's BoxRec for that...

Also, a few junior divisions are already available at the time, but were just disregarded by some historians... In fact, there were a few lineal champions from those era...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:38 pm 
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Rios and Algieri are bums.
Torrecampo was a bum.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:43 pm 
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Junorz wrote:
JoeyInCali wrote:
Junorz wrote:
Also, nobody gave Ali a chance against Liston.

Was Robinson ever in the same situation?

He was some 9 years older than Fulmer.
Was considered a has been.


Well, Fullmer was just a 3-1 favorite or slightly higher.
Liston was -800 or at least 8-1 favorite over Ali.

What's more amazing about Robinson's record, his wins over 3 noobs making their pro debut registered on boxrec as, what else, WINS! Duran's exhibition matches after dominating the lightweight division with 1 or 2-win noobs also registered as wins. Good for them, good for their inflated record. I say they are just as farcical as Floyd's win over a Jap MMA artist fought under boxing rules. But Floyd's win didn't count as one. See how generous they were during the so-called golden era?

Well, Floyd only has 50 wins.
Didn't have to deal with 6 ounce gloves and 18 ft rings.
Was only underdog against Chico.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:45 pm 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
Rios and Algieri are bums.
Torrecampo was a bum.


That's nothing compared on SRR bum opponent count...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:49 pm 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
Rios and Algieri are bums.
Torrecampo was a bum.


Henry Armstrong lost his first fight, and a few others to bums after that. In the end, he was always mentioned in the same conversation with Ali and Robinson.

After losing to Torrecampo, after becoming a champion,Pacquiao never fought a fighter of that caliber again. Robinson, after becoming welterweight and middleweight champion, still fought 3 fighters making their pro debut and bums with 20, 30 and 40 losses. And none of those achieved the level of Rios and Algieri if they're now considered the norm for bums.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:53 pm 
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The only World Champion in 8 weight divisions. The only boxer who did that is the greatest for me. 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:26 pm 
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Junorz wrote:
JoeyInCali wrote:
Rios and Algieri are bums.
Torrecampo was a bum.


Henry Armstrong lost his first fight, and a few others to bums after that. In the end, he was always mentioned in the same conversation with Ali and Robinson.

After losing to Torrecampo, after becoming a champion,Pacquiao never fought a fighter of that caliber again. Robinson, after becoming welterweight and middleweight champion, still fought 3 fighters making their pro debut and bums with 20, 30 and 40 losses. And none of those achieved the level of Rios and Algieri if they're now considered the norm for bums.


I'm sure not even within the level of Solis, or a few may not even in the level of Velazquez, Hussein or Jamili...

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:19 am 
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JoeyInCali wrote:
He's been KO'd 3 times.

Sugar Ray Robinson and Ali?
Just like Manny, they're beaten also. Ali was knockdown once by Frazier. Sugar Ray Robinson was also beaten before. And they are all great but Manny was greater, in my opinion.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:31 am 
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You also have to consider where Manny came from in comparison with Ali, SRR, or Armstrong. He came from a third world country where, born so poor, had no benefit of an amateur boxing training unlike the others. That is also one reason why I think, at least, compared to Mayweather, Manny is greater than Mayweather. And can be greater or equal to Ali and Sugar Ray Robinson

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:12 am 
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The article's title didn't say he was the greatest boxer of all time ...

At any rate, I consider him as one of the greatest boxers of all time. No greatest for me, and I can only speak of those in my lifetime - Salvador Sanchez, Ali, Frazier, Hearns, Duran, Leonard, Tyson, Hagler, Pacman, Morales, Barrera, Floyd, ODLH, etc.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:10 am 
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gritsteel2 wrote:
The article's title didn't say he was the greatest boxer of all time ...

At any rate, I consider him as one of the greatest boxers of all time. No greatest for me, and I can only speak of those in my lifetime - Salvador Sanchez, Ali, Frazier, Hearns, Duran, Leonard, Tyson, Hagler, Pacman, Morales, Barrera, Floyd, ODLH, etc.


Yes, just a poor choice of words for the title...

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